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Cc: Paul Jewell Subject: Re: Packages grow, no longer fit on a =?utf-8?Q?=F0=9F=92=BE?= In-Reply-To: <3586bd3c-2d97-ca0d-f722-be08a7440e1e@teulu.org> (Paul Jewell via's message of "Wed, 18 Jan 2023 21:44:34 +0100") References: <87tu0s7otg.fsf@inria.fr> <3586bd3c-2d97-ca0d-f722-be08a7440e1e@teulu.org> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 00:07:44 +0600 Message-ID: <87pmbaqtxr.fsf@disroot.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=178.21.23.139; envelope-from=akib@disroot.org; helo=knopi.disroot.org X-Spam_score_int: -4 X-Spam_score: -0.5 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (-0.5 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DATE_IN_PAST_06_12=1.543, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, PDS_BTC_ID=0.077, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1674193533; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=/dJb4aohYq7D8jbCD8UcIOhaqqb/pVMxrjWVlZnrPeA=; b=dpC2VxOpkxc2Ql72c7FviNWhLESn5CopmDjaQjXavEUxNztQSvqdM1Zsbw+o75LudE4Tse OaLnvk4on8zhdi2RhAFySdGGtxpLd5OaoKy6Z4Fl79Qh+C8AnABRB1MfHIxcVEK9A2Zv4f 4zqyN4gL9oIxv/zt6Hvbu2HOJtlMvVIQXt6NKCZN9ugAcIM0bKWR8C8gqjgLEu+ZDq+pYr wOac/6SpsXUg2LnmdxDpw6yw62kfRxOvGB9gheQbziPGBEI7mwmVyzATYfrXSyh2gxgoKu orm54A2mSMdYRs5XKj/nMjGnXwjkznmGzSYjfqXMvPH8qq9bA4OCuExXYVTOdA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=disroot.org header.s=mail header.b=b4sHANEt; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=disroot.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1674193533; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=lo7zZMfo/dJjmut/vRQmbeg838C6nZIwnFFcEVUDk+SbyTMTM0mwUCEIc50a9n/160/Ulx 3zuNPgunSXhf6gGS9Ry5fGc6+zxTUTxDai6Il6HRJrPeUffgN1MWMwuo6eYSQpnVjRfiat gwNAjMNlTT5MRN0LSLchP+bBQ3EtKsf/M6JlLkceOZD+3txbqVQG2w9vXzTDw4YPkE4nrN c2hKOmpzLMBopPkEc4XxPtSnQiLwWV+45mVGOte+8w0TF4Hk6B/9Wrv0XXo5+6OeXvnNYa XjVTwYuyDif8+UvcEDUCeiLlGRrA1fh81h18hjiN0ubjuG99ueJzZYiIhDlnnA== X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -6.87 X-Spam-Score: -6.87 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 350A716B8B Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=disroot.org header.s=mail header.b=b4sHANEt; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=disroot.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-TUID: 35nRhWSPqHzI --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul Jewell via "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." writes: > Evening all, > > On 14/01/2023 23:07, Ludovic Court=C3=A8s wrote: >> Hello! >> Over the course of a few years, the size of our packages has >> apparently >> kept growing. Example: >> --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- >> $ guix time-machine --commit=3Dv1.2.0 -- size emacs >> store item total = self >> /gnu/store/118xpdazyylxa1rlc68h9lmh38vhxrb4-llvm-10.0.0 210.8= 139.3 16.2% >> /gnu/store/1qmd9achfkm1njzxf8hi86q53pmy9sxk-mesa-20.0.7 369.2= 131.3 15.3% >> /gnu/store/d83hc7cqgnhl1vlz1rv4ibkvaqaq2g35-emacs-27.1 859.7= 106.2 12.4% >> /gnu/store/18hp7flyb3yid3yp49i6qcdq0sbi5l1n-guile-3.0.2 132.8= 53.2 6.2% >> /gnu/store/9lckq1194qcy4a7kv8bihagd58shj7yr-gtk+-3.24.20 723.7= 49.0 5.7% >> /gnu/store/qizplwwgqwyq6qmz1i6jlaib5kgzrgwq-icu4c-66.1 110.2= 38.1 4.4% >> /gnu/store/fa6wj5bxkj5ll1d7292a70knmyl7a0cr-glibc-2.31 38.4= 36.7 4.3% >> [=E2=80=A6] >> total: 859.7 MiB >> $ guix time-machine --commit=3Dv1.3.0 -- size emacs >> store item total = self >> /gnu/store/g3idjpqsp2p2d163qfzskxj4k58nrx7f-llvm-11.0.0 220.0= 148.6 16.9% >> /gnu/store/jf269s6clr6r57p8v5c3c1qkyra6apq2-mesa-20.2.4 389.1= 141.6 16.1% >> /gnu/store/7nlq2v4000pw8vgj3m4vrwz072ib58xh-emacs-27.2 880.5= 106.4 12.1% >> /gnu/store/18hp7flyb3yid3yp49i6qcdq0sbi5l1n-guile-3.0.2 132.8= 53.2 6.0% >> /gnu/store/czf23hay13pp25yzrb4yq3n4gcri5r70-gtk+-3.24.24 744.3= 49.1 5.6% >> /gnu/store/2wqjj3mkqdvsvksndr2hpjpi7qqwi7kr-icu4c-66.1 110.2= 38.1 4.3% >> /gnu/store/fa6wj5bxkj5ll1d7292a70knmyl7a0cr-glibc-2.31 38.4= 36.7 4.2% >> [=E2=80=A6] >> total: 880.5 MiB >> $ guix time-machine --commit=3Dv1.4.0 -- size emacs >> store item total = self >> /gnu/store/i11jmrc90drpx9mc6cyb6s4pjny91qx6-emacs-28.2 1592.7= 250.6 15.7% >> /gnu/store/sdzfljm6san79pqiy42yp0nzmkr2bafc-mesa-21.3.8 411.6= 169.6 10.6% >> /gnu/store/6pdzpmxg5afzss6dlivq8z84sfa31x22-llvm-11.0.0 221.5= 149.5 9.4% >> /gnu/store/lphzb1z0r4kbb453rsvnw7msrxxzp5r7-libgccjit-10.3.0 244.8= 128.5 8.1% >> /gnu/store/pfas3c4lhr1jwkj2gl0yx8dg4xjjlp4r-mozjs-91.13.0 261.2= 65.4 4.1% >> /gnu/store/hy6abswwv4d89zp464fw52z65fkzr7h5-perl-5.34.0 147.7= 58.6 3.7% >> /gnu/store/zyqimpkmpffc24nwwqp46cicj8ss85y5-binutils-2.37 126.0= 54.4 3.4% >> /gnu/store/cnfsv9ywaacyafkqdqsv2ry8f01yr7a9-guile-3.0.7 129.1= 52.0 3.3% >> /gnu/store/4aq7hw017s9ihpm1rxpwfz28c80569z9-gtk+-3.24.30 1002.2= 48.6 3.1% >> /gnu/store/vaxkf8cbc7slgc3ikm5qr3815wih93w8-ghostscript-with-cups-9.54.0= 219.1 39.1 2.5% >> /gnu/store/bjycxjjkp1da53ijsa4hfdrz9mcgg55h-icu4c-69.1 110.7= 38.0 2.4% >> /gnu/store/ayc9r7162rphy4zjw8ch01pmyh214h82-glibc-2.33 76.6= 36.6 2.3% >> [=E2=80=A6] >> total: 1592.7 MiB >> --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- >> I think something went wrong here. :-) >> In particular with Emacs itself (due to JIT + dependency on >> libgccjit, >> Binutils, etc.?) and with GTK+ (due to mozjs in polkit?). >> And then MESA and LLVM have always been problematically big. >> We should do better. I mean, it=E2=80=99s just a text editor, isn=E2=80= =99t it? >> Ludo=E2=80=99. >>=20 > > Please forgive my ignorance if I have missed anything but: > > - does anyone actually install from a CD these days? I don't know, but I'd just use a pendrive if I need an external storage. (If I don't need, I'd just use a 2 GB HDD partition, which I made just for very purpose. ;) ) > - Can an ISO be bigger than a CD then be installed on a memory stick? Yes. > > It strikes me that this is like King Canute holding back the > tide. Package size growth is pretty inevitable, and even if work now > can bring the size down to that of a CD, the same problem will occur > in the not too distant future. > But we should really try to keep them low. > Is it really a problem? YES!!!!!!!!! Big packages means, it takes more space. If a package grows by 700 MB, installed on 10,000 computers, ~70 TB (70,000,000 MB) is wasted. You could use that precious storage to save your dad's photo, your favorite music, your child's video calling you "daddy/mummy" for the first time, etc. You would need to get more storage for that storing those invaluable things, so you would need more storage devices. When you buy more storage, the demand of increases, and therefore the manufacturing of storage devices increase. The more devices are manufactured, the more carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gas emission. Again, if the packages is downloaded 100 times every day, ~70 GB (70000 MB) of bandwidth is wasted every day. Someone on the network could use that to do some more important thing, like video calling a relative living far away. Moreover, it takes time to get the extra 700 MB for everyone. Assuming it takes 8 minutes on average, ~13.33 hours (800 minutes) of time is wasted everyday. We have limited time in our lives, we shouldn't waste the time. This extra ~70 GB of transmission means more load on the network, more load on the network devices, and therefore more power consumption. The more power consumption, the more greenhouse gas emission, since we're fossil fuel dependent. If your country uses nuclear power, the extra nuclear waste is a threat for the environment. The more greenhouse gas, the more greenhouse effect, the more global warming, the more climate change. You will just destroy the earth for future yourself and the future generation. What will you answer to them? > Please educate me! :) It's my pleasure to make someone aware. I hope this was enough. :) If not, just ask! > > -- > Paul > > =2D-=20 Akib Azmain Turja, GPG key: 70018CE5819F17A3BBA666AFE74F0EFA922AE7F5 Fediverse: akib@hostux.social Codeberg: akib emailselfdefense.fsf.org | "Nothing can be secure without encryption." --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEyVTKmrtL6kNBe3FRVTX89U2IYWsFAmPJhvAACgkQVTX89U2I YWvqOxAAqk3Reu7+1NjwUC0/j1HpLtp5goyU/pnl7VGvhuYY6VvEEQQbnGuvgj6q BzTMACVXkEmjwpaB7/ustQ8vCOSy3xGDMa5zLz6HpXdnnFaODrVqMKANgAE5b6iX s6GTpoNsRmy1Aj7SoNk/7Zw/b4vUHI3eW1842tNAGiUtdpq4JejLgK0C8pa8eYnE GOc7uIwwwlqdHnDV+U2SpY1uNYzTbtyUkfUmIpeVfhnH6rTVQvgd4gLXxbfWZq9U 2BBkAAKtg/3Fl6rgg083EVsT2yuRPnMWC3fVyUoO7m6vLxTet7wSt4cTJn538+tJ Vuz7duT8wtlD2eU+gG68Y29AeQWIvzk/VPG484f1neciRBouElkf021LxFBdpV8e jJDprDwRmZhpaHBzczxYUg9sDhb5uocP2u9840btqtZsfJGgGI34xnnHA8+EF7XX 15qUU0lrl8An6YA/5v5PSOWvPvTdMQA4mcJ7sWUZUN15ViXpb3nC0dpBkrjLjoO0 Ka7c6Tzyr903Da5gCUuF9oq1Sn0BSIDJPAwQBse5jojBqcRSKEZDAkQXrHJRw3ZM y/+p8ylq/GGMh4yGxEx5tql4VnfLNO5gFcVEzMi7f/KplJRF1egJ5Nd/nwduso/k PF7DHC92G7mDfDZloAWswl3/+rLED45YYYkIR2+ohbRg7lEHNH4= =9giU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--