From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Giovanni Biscuolo Subject: A better XML, config is code (was Re: Profiles/manifests-related command line...) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 16:56:59 +0100 Message-ID: <87lfsmpfsk.fsf@roquette.mug.biscuolo.net> References: <87mudrxvs8.fsf@ambrevar.xyz> <87mudd59ho.fsf@gnu.org> <877e4glyc3.fsf@ambrevar.xyz> <87v9rxx8ri.fsf@gnu.org> <87d0e4oy51.fsf@ambrevar.xyz> <878sop6icq.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:38071) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iUC4F-0002ae-8P for guix-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 11 Nov 2019 10:57:28 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iUC4D-0008Md-Bp for guix-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 11 Nov 2019 10:57:26 -0500 Received: from ns13.heimat.it ([46.4.214.66]:43402) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iUC4D-0008LN-2N for guix-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 11 Nov 2019 10:57:25 -0500 In-Reply-To: List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: Konrad Hinsen , guix-devel@gnu.org --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Konrad, this thread is slowly going OT from the initial subject, anyway I found an interesting comment from you I would like to reply Konrad Hinsen writes: > Hi Ludo, [...] >> Just to say I=E2=80=99m not willing to replace =E2=80=98config.scm=E2=80= =99 with >> =E2=80=98config.yaml=E2=80=99, if that=E2=80=99s what you had in mind. = :-) > > YAML is for kids. Real managers won't settle for less than full > XML. ;-) When I started studying Guix/Scheme (and I'm still far away from understanding) I stubled on an article advocating Lisp to XML-minded people like I was: http:/www.defmacro.org/ramblings/lisp.html The point is: config.scm is better than config.xml that is better than config.yaml that is better than config.json :-D The real question is: a configure file is code or data? IMHO is code, especially when it comes to system configuration; for this reason every user learn to *code* in some way or another (even when using a GUI to configure software) Systems are complex, we should avoid complicating them (think any configuration management system you like :-O ) *and* we should also avoid oversimplifying them [1]; this also means users must know what they are doing [...] > The question is if we want Guix to remain exclusively a power tool for > power users. Mumble... but every user *is* a power user when installing and configuring a system, no? The "only" difference is what tools *and* binary distribution (or binary building) system we decide to trust when installing and configuring our system, and our decision should be informed ...so yes, if it's not a channel under your control - or of someone you decide to trust - you should better not use it (and do not copy/paste configuration files you do not understand) I recently read this "Curl to shell isn't so bad" article (thanks ARota) https://arp242.net/curl-to-sh.html =C2=ABIn the end it=E2=80=99s still just running code you didn=E2=80=99t pe= rsonally audit on your computer, and a matter of trust.=C2=BB Guix is the best candidate to build a software ecosystem which we can trust (and we already have), starting from "almost zero" binary depends via GNU Mes and stage0; and we can always /challenge/ any substitute server :-) This obviously does not solve the "trust in source code" problem [2], but this is another story [...] Thanks! Gio' [1] Docker "containers" are easier from an "end user" POV than installing and configuring via a "classic" package manager... but have you ever tried to understand what's installed in a 7 layer filesystems container?!? So what is *seems* simple is often _complicated_ :-O=20 [2] and that was also *not* the scope of the famous Trusting Trust speech =2D-=20 Giovanni Biscuolo Xelera IT Infrastructures --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEERcxjuFJYydVfNLI5030Op87MORIFAl3JhMwACgkQ030Op87M ORLQPRAAxlbLBoUX82l7nGuETJKoaLMXeRX1CM+V05hHGMhfQ/gT9t/Guf3NeNaA kR0ZnAOToa0xUbRxPN63zoKtdBgxKy06CgckPtPiKsIBXxuRp823JbHwhMmxBNxr Xc/mmWm19BhHOwTK48hynaBYxKNhgXjj6Hfgt5xd7ZLsW4dGHbrywe57Gsk7KcBM nfXbB1GLVH3tpeTIsQz63L1hkSHHp/jTVh5QbN4ysbXO+LcwtrqFWjERZ10mpWO1 Qlklz2XNf3zYe68mRtRYdQj8yzTRpoWUKJg+qvM2Bah+BJFIB5T7JEd46mn0I714 gS5FNCEzxcUkUS1ncoVyy9IniIPDyC5eEYaXNV4FShaSRdvyAeIEAFC9Z+K2ngMW Leq05QFxntZLASJ4KxLv5U7KMN72y9G9xc2ThEIS/6xY1eX3IaT+EkYBIASmml6c lQ0BIg/J82l/z2mRBwKqgCgCFg6BizSKAmne32SrTXd2zvNernmuZcLJ3EHAzDuh wVuOY4s688DANLwT0stMsZW28v0KZry3kuAhbUY8i1CxQpNsZZalFs534rkjhi9w vG+7uY/MjIOMdVaGho7ofJ+inxyKagT2VaXjBXqRYszClwAenkEnetVIeT9WqR6Y o2b9FlJhqU5Z/+pRg2LlGdcax0GxYzpzZThqbV4y0wr17oH+J8A= =lPlO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--