From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id QK9wEwKyr2DAMwAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 27 May 2021 16:51:46 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2 with LMTPS id aBFADwKyr2BZDwAAB5/wlQ (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 27 May 2021 14:51:46 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BBC6525BF1 for ; Thu, 27 May 2021 16:51:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:45270 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lmHMO-0004Pk-RZ for larch@yhetil.org; Thu, 27 May 2021 10:51:44 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40518) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lmHIO-0000kE-Sd for guix-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 27 May 2021 10:47:44 -0400 Received: from mx1.dismail.de ([78.46.223.134]:22429) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lmHIM-0001X1-0b; Thu, 27 May 2021 10:47:36 -0400 Received: from mx1.dismail.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx1.dismail.de (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id d7ec6886; Thu, 27 May 2021 16:47:29 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=dismail.de; h=from:to:cc :subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=20190914; bh=Scau/Kvy YawXJdjVjwo94WEXrOP1IWpChgU3DmA2jik=; b=BSI4YmfO70kdQW9KvcyATxqv WzF9s0ogPjwzX+afPAV0faki7XghlkW2xCWqSAvC9ZejnD3CgXmf5kFSeU4VVM5o tjsszopfOq3zY5SkmWzJpOAG2gmLULU47foujZyLViMq9zUxyCqItGnRsN0sTE2B V8q3NaY+nTyyXx/8MZJbDdZzpxXIdZGmIhC4LriD9HVNWK8tpo2h5kYzrp9OagPc 25K96uE+7ZSKeDRfUGFe6np1p/Ox3Yx/17WRT/20FquGHCmz73tBEnglUJwm/ih5 /KOoLAIevt6RxQofZrpgBfwHeXsn65FC5qXJlVD1XH0KgOACdktlfsSAvRTXDQ== Received: from smtp2.dismail.de ( [10.240.26.12]) by mx1.dismail.de (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id be8fb306; Thu, 27 May 2021 16:47:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp2.dismail.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp2.dismail.de (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id c723fab8; Thu, 27 May 2021 16:47:29 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dismail.de (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id 2569755a (TLSv1.3:AEAD-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256:NO); Thu, 27 May 2021 16:47:27 +0200 (CEST) From: Joshua Branson To: Pjotr Prins Cc: Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= , guix-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: Rust freedom issue claim References: <87bl90byqf.fsf@disroot.org> <87k0nlsh0c.fsf@gnu.org> <20210526151415.yer3zduopggr6ds6@thebird.nl> Mail-Followup-To: Pjotr Prins , Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= , guix-devel@gnu.org Date: Thu, 27 May 2021 10:47:25 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20210526151415.yer3zduopggr6ds6@thebird.nl> (Pjotr Prins's message of "Wed, 26 May 2021 17:14:15 +0200") Message-ID: <87k0nknshu.fsf@dismail.de> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=78.46.223.134; envelope-from=jbranso@dismail.de; helo=mx1.dismail.de X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1622127105; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=fZ+WhVRfat5oo6GC9k0y0CjdHKM8KO7cOUwD0a1aIIc=; b=MfzjGitw8SjGSarJBAuBns0/kCp5gMtpkGWbtwAYZ+y6PHpbfUxCKm7NxUXh6IFQDcTnSd hGEn21Y1JuUNhtD8O6a/VBAqgBOQa4cERATbTYzwANpnM9Kvv5EfcItxsr3nPUySp1rp1I iERuTcTC/UogzeRRaB7f2Q6LFw3VXNAMVgwa41eTJGSyF3sWkP/8LWflx+EFAm2+jhlyi+ 8LhyfQA2PpHe8DFUMOYXfUBmEbfV2VqjvSv6TT7y2wY5n73pvII8ksyDX1qUZGQQ7xyAAS jt7+0CqoBPLeleqT5t6+IXCnSdU3sDMIAEyfGhJ2wF69HM9qDM12HZKuDdlZgw== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1622127105; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=VGMfBU8mmWgvy9S3Sgr8nkn3t59IntbFGIeD9AsKI12k2JGyIHZZBs7v/S6faFXywLlZ63 +7av6ozOyySQwfpOQrQ5Wc8CVrpvmcHZz5rq0swyE3zqKwSp9qCCHgaFdHLba4a+OZdO9m tpmYMVkAjgES9Ogtz5waKHgcOTWW07WHoSIfGzBzINk9u8m877uQbBQuswnrykzzutfdEJ S0UTWrEhLK+JfryeLQwTQ1WNMNWW7iiu6mkmgCZ29xB5y2yvwAlCOnkv/v5SMvtRYjvHb7 giDE4oPxCNSoqUwn35SV18sUrYm8gjOMEUyRzKulM1jPKQbgOrMiIb56DkcPjg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=dismail.de header.s=20190914 header.b=BSI4YmfO; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.13 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=dismail.de header.s=20190914 header.b=BSI4YmfO; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=dismail.de; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: BBC6525BF1 X-Spam-Score: -3.13 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: 5alYuP2BEJaI Pjotr Prins writes: > On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 04:32:03PM +0200, Ludovic Court=C3=A8s wrote: >> That=E2=80=99s a somewhat different topic. FWIW, I=E2=80=99m both excit= ed at the idea >> of having a memory-safe replacement for C gaining momentum, and >> frightened by the prospects of Rust being this replacement, for many >> reasons including: Rust does not have a good bootstrapping story, as we >> know all too well, Cargo encourages sloppy package distribution =C3=A0 la >> npm, Rust in the kernel would give a false sense of safety (it=E2=80=99s= still >> that big monolithic blob!), and the Rust community is very much >> anti-copyleft. > > Having adopted Rust for some of our bioinformatics work, I can fully > agree. It is actually hard to use Rust without Cargo and it is an > implosion npm-style waiting to happen if the most trivial program > already imports 100+ external packages - some of doubtful quality. > > Another thing I have against Rust is its syntax - but that is > (arguably) taste. I can't believe references are written with an > ampersand - and they are so common it is in your face all the time. > That is just noise. And sometimes the borrow checker really gets in > the way (and I pine for GC). We are sticking with Rust though because > the compiler works hard and is a sucker for detail, so it helps both > less and more experienced programmers to avoid C/C++ traps. Also Rust > has no OOP that people can use - I am very happy about that. In short > it is a fairly pragmatic FP language with some nice compile time > features. I don't love it but it is an OK compromise. In terms of languages trying to be replacements for C: - Zig is one of the most famous ones, and will probably be the first C alternatives to reach 1.0. https://ziglang.org/ - Odin https://odin-lang.org/ - scopes which using S-expressions https://sr.ht/~duangle/scopes/ - Drew Devault's (creator or sway) secret programming language. It may be the second language on this list to reach 1.0 > > For kernels I completely agree with you. Memory safety is a red > herring because we face much deeper problems. Open hardware and > message passing is the way forward. > > Oh, did you know Rust expands all sources into one 'blob' for > compilation? At the crate level. It led to the meme: "The Rust > programming language compiles fast software slowly." > > I have not hit real issues yet with compilation speed, but it feels > like we regressed to huge C++ template expansion... > >> Guix, related projects such as Mes, Gash, and the Shepherd, together >> with the Hurd, offer a very different and (to me) more appealing vision >> for a user-empowering, safer, more robust, and yet POSIX-compliant OS. > > Good architecture is far more important than a borrow checker. > > Pj. > -- Joshua Branson (joshuaBPMan in #guix) Sent from Emacs and Gnus https://gnucode.me https://video.hardlimit.com/accounts/joshua_branson/video-channels https://propernaming.org "You can have whatever you want, as long as you help enough other people get what they want." - Zig Ziglar