Leaving the guix project

Leaving the guix project

[David Craven]

Hello guixers!

I am very grateful for all the things I could learn during my time
here and all the awesome work that you guys put in.

But I wish to leave the guix project and that my savannah account be
removed. This is not a decision I make lightly. The reason why I
decided it was time to move on is because I do not wish to be part of
GNU or the FSF.

I believe that the reason why free software is better and will always
be better than non-free software, is because of all the love and care
that we put in. It's about building cool and awesome stuff. I think
that this is the reason free software has become a viable alternative
to non-free software.

I also believe that the gnu project has moved away from those core
values and focuses instead on petitioning websites and hardware
manufacturers to release work they have invested a lot of money in
developing, often in very pushy and uncivil ways. Even if they
succeed, I do not really care about this expensive, rushed to market
and badly engineered code. I believe that the free software community
can do much better on it's own.

I hope you can understand and respect my decision.

David

Re: Leaving the guix project

[Leo Famulari]

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On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 01:14:15AM +0100, David Craven wrote:
> Hello guixers!
> 
> I am very grateful for all the things I could learn during my time
> here and all the awesome work that you guys put in.
> 
> But I wish to leave the guix project and that my savannah account be
> removed. This is not a decision I make lightly. The reason why I
> decided it was time to move on is because I do not wish to be part of
> GNU or the FSF.
> 
> I believe that the reason why free software is better and will always
> be better than non-free software, is because of all the love and care
> that we put in. It's about building cool and awesome stuff. I think
> that this is the reason free software has become a viable alternative
> to non-free software.
> 
> I also believe that the gnu project has moved away from those core
> values and focuses instead on petitioning websites and hardware
> manufacturers to release work they have invested a lot of money in
> developing, often in very pushy and uncivil ways. Even if they
> succeed, I do not really care about this expensive, rushed to market
> and badly engineered code. I believe that the free software community
> can do much better on it's own.
> 
> I hope you can understand and respect my decision.
> 
> David

Hi David,

Your contributions to GNU Guix have been valuable, and I'm sorry to see
you go.

I wish you good luck with whatever you decide to do!

Sincerely,
Leo

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Re: Leaving the guix project

[Alex Kost]

David Craven (2017-02-16 01:14 +0100) wrote:

> Hello guixers!

Hello David, thank you very much for all the great work you did for
Guix!

> I am very grateful for all the things I could learn during my time
> here and all the awesome work that you guys put in.
>
> But I wish to leave the guix project and that my savannah account be
> removed. This is not a decision I make lightly. The reason why I
> decided it was time to move on is because I do not wish to be part of
> GNU or the FSF.

As I see it, contributing to Guix doesn't make you a part of GNU or FSF.

> I believe that the reason why free software is better and will always
> be better than non-free software, is because of all the love and care
> that we put in. It's about building cool and awesome stuff. I think
> that this is the reason free software has become a viable alternative
> to non-free software.

I think the same!

> I also believe that the gnu project has moved away from those core
> values and focuses instead on petitioning websites and hardware
> manufacturers to release work they have invested a lot of money in
> developing, often in very pushy and uncivil ways. Even if they
> succeed, I do not really care about this expensive, rushed to market
> and badly engineered code. I believe that the free software community
> can do much better on it's own.

I don't understand how these concerns relate to Guix.  I look at Guix as
at a software project, and I simply don't participate in the general
GNU/FSF discussions that raises in guix-devel list sometimes.

> I hope you can understand and respect my decision.

I don't really understand it, but I respect your decision.  You are free
to do what seems appropriate to you.  Thanks!

-- 
Alex

Re: Leaving the guix project

[Ricardo Wurmus]

Hi David,

> I am very grateful for all the things I could learn during my time
> here and all the awesome work that you guys put in.

…and we are grateful for your many contributions!

It’s probably obvious that you and I disagree on some of the points
you’ve made, but for the sake of onlookers I’d like to comment on a few
of the points you’ve made in your email.  I’m not trying to change your
mind; instead I’d like to offer a different perspective.

> But I wish to leave the guix project and that my savannah account be
> removed. This is not a decision I make lightly. The reason why I
> decided it was time to move on is because I do not wish to be part of
> GNU or the FSF.
[…]
> I also believe that the gnu project has moved away from those core
> values and focuses instead on petitioning websites and hardware
> manufacturers to release work they have invested a lot of money in
> developing, often in very pushy and uncivil ways. Even if they
> succeed, I do not really care about this expensive, rushed to market
> and badly engineered code.

To avoid misunderstandings: GNU is separate from the FSF, but they stand
for two branches of the free software movement.  GNU is representative
of the part that is mostly fun: writing new freedom-respecting software,
exploring new ideas to give users more power (see the Hurd and Guix
projects for examples), a volunteer effort to develop a complete
freedom-respecting operating system (a shifting goal).

The FSF and its sibling organisations focus on policy and advocacy,
areas that are often avoided by people who just want to write code.  The
issue of free software is closely tied to ideas relating to the
development of society itself, so it involves different powerful actors
— this includes suppliers of hardware as well as policy makers.
Lobbying and advocacy are strategies, not goals in themselves.

Likewise, Copyleft as implemented in various licenses such as the GPL is
not the goal, but it is a *strategy* towards that goal.  Few people
(myself included) get excited about legal language, but Copyleft is a
great legal hack that tries to ensure that the other branch of the
movement can continue to write software that remains free.

I do not share your experience about how this is done (“often in very
pushy and uncivil ways”); in my experience the FSFE has done excellent
work to make the issue of free software visible where it matters.
(Since I’m based in Europe I haven’t directly seen or as closely
followed much of what the FSF does.)

I’m convinced that we need both branches of the movement in order to get
closer to the goal of having a reasonable *chance* to get our computing
done without the use of proprietary software.

--
Ricardo

GPG: BCA6 89B6 3655 3801 C3C6  2150 197A 5888 235F ACAC
https://elephly.net

Re: Leaving the guix project

[Hartmut Goebel]

Hi David,
> I also believe that the gnu project has moved away from those core
> values and focuses instead on petitioning websites and hardware
> manufacturers to release work they have invested a lot of money in
> developing, often in very pushy and uncivil ways. Even if they
> succeed, I do not really care about this expensive, rushed to market
> and badly engineered code. I believe that the free software community
> can do much better on it's own.

Like others I don't understand how these concerns relate to Guix.

I'm sad you decided to leave the Guix project – which is about to become reality – due to some "visionary" point which I consider to not related to Guix. It's a bit like not helping people to get drinking water since they have the vision to make their own Coke.

Anyway, it's your decision.

-- 
Regards
Hartmut Goebel

| Hartmut Goebel          | h.goebel@crazy-compilers.com               |
| www.crazy-compilers.com | compilers which you thought are impossible |

Re: Leaving the guix project

[Alex Vong]

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David Craven <david@craven.ch> writes:

> Hello guixers!
>
> I am very grateful for all the things I could learn during my time
> here and all the awesome work that you guys put in.
>
Thanks for your contribution. Lurking the mailing list, I remember you
have put a lot of effort into the kde packages.

> But I wish to leave the guix project and that my savannah account be
> removed. This is not a decision I make lightly. The reason why I
> decided it was time to move on is because I do not wish to be part of
> GNU or the FSF.
>
> I believe that the reason why free software is better and will always
> be better than non-free software, is because of all the love and care
> that we put in. It's about building cool and awesome stuff. I think
> that this is the reason free software has become a viable alternative
> to non-free software.
>
> I also believe that the gnu project has moved away from those core
> values and focuses instead on petitioning websites and hardware
> manufacturers to release work they have invested a lot of money in
> developing, often in very pushy and uncivil ways. Even if they
> succeed, I do not really care about this expensive, rushed to market
> and badly engineered code. I believe that the free software community
> can do much better on it's own.
>
> I hope you can understand and respect my decision.
>
I respect your decision. Feel free to contribute to whatever project you
feel comfortably contributing to. I hope you can find such project.

> David

Cheers,
Alex

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Re: Leaving the guix project

[Andy Wingo]

Hi,

On Thu 16 Feb 2017 01:14, David Craven <david@craven.ch> writes:

> GNU or the FSF.

FWIW as a GNU maintainer -- although I find the FSF's work to be
interesting, and I understand that you do not, it has no relation to the
work I do.  I think if you posit a free software project that works in
the way you describe ("on its own"), it would work very much like Guile
works right now.  I think the same for Guix -- Ludo and Richard don't
pass their patches by some kind of FSF approval board ;)

That said, happy hacking, and see you around some part of the free
software universe I hope :)

Andy

Re: Leaving the guix project

[Andy Wingo]

On Thu 16 Feb 2017 14:17, Andy Wingo <wingo@igalia.com> writes:

> Ludo and Richard don't pass their patches by some kind of FSF approval
> board ;)

I goofed on Ricardo's name.  Apologies, Ricardo!

Andy

Re: Leaving the guix project

[David Craven]

> I think if you posit a free software project that works in the way you
> describe ("on its own"), it would work very much like Guile works
> right now.

An operating system has to work on all hardware. Asking people to buy a
RYF approved device to run guixsd is no different than apple requiring you
to buy an apple computer to run mac os x. Turning guixsd into an embedded
system for RYF devices is not something I want to spend time and effort on. I
can't with good conscience recommend to people to buy a usb wifi adapter to
use guixsd when I believe they have much larger privacy issues in their devices.

To be comfortable contributing to a free project I need to know that people are
able to do whatever THEY want, with those contributions, and not what the FSF
wants. The FSDG and GNU philosophy prevent me from offering any kind of help
and require me to do it hidden. What really gets to me is that I feel
- whether justly
or not - that the FSF believes I need to feel shame for doing and recommending
whatever I believe is best. The word "immoral" in this context is
simply unacceptable
to me.

Compliance with the FSDG makes guix very much dependent on an
external entity.

Re: Leaving the guix project

[Adonay Felipe Nogueira]

Oh... I see...

One must understand that while we mustn't
recommend/install/share/sell/teach-usage-of non-free software for the
users, they *can* do whatever they want. However, as I just said: If
they want to make use of non-free software, they are on their own, and
we should try to convince them to stop using such non-free software
(note: "convincing" does not mean "forcing").

I do not represent the GuixSD project, nor the GNU project, nor the FSF,
but my understanding of the GNU FSDG so far results in the following
recommendation: If you do want to make your conotributions, and if such
contributions involve for example, making recipes for non-(free/libre),
then perhaps you have to fork the project, and use Guix package manager
as the package manager for your own system distribution, or provide your
own Guix-compatible repository. Although this will result in normal
users mistakenly using help-guix mailing list so as to seek help for
your own set of package recipes, in such cases the project will probably
make the issue reports invalid *depending on what is the issue* for each
case.

Re: Leaving the guix project

[John Darrington]

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On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 01:56:04PM +0100, David Craven wrote:
     > I think if you posit a free software project that works in the way you
     > describe ("on its own"), it would work very much like Guile works
     > right now.
     
     An operating system has to work on all hardware. Asking people to buy a
     RYF approved device to run guixsd is no different than apple requiring you
     to buy an apple computer to run mac os x. Turning guixsd into an embedded
     system for RYF devices is not something I want to spend time and effort on. I
     can't with good conscience recommend to people to buy a usb wifi adapter to
     use guixsd when I believe they have much larger privacy issues in their devices.

So far as I'm aware, nobody has ever said that Guix may not run on devices which are not
RYF approved.  I have indeed run it quite sucessfully on devices which are not.
     
     To be comfortable contributing to a free project I need to know that people are
     able to do whatever THEY want, with those contributions, and not what the FSF
     wants. 

I agree.  And I think that both Guix and the FSF has been very carefull not to 
impose any usage restrictions on users. (there have been calls to add restrictions
forbidding use by military/nuclear/extremist-political groups but those have been
definitively rejected.)

With the single exception of preventing a third party doing whatever they want,
people ARE able to do with it whatever they want.   Is it this exception you 
are concerned about or somthing else?

-- 
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Re: Leaving the guix project

[Ricardo Wurmus]

David Craven <david@craven.ch> writes:

>> I think if you posit a free software project that works in the way you
>> describe ("on its own"), it would work very much like Guile works
>> right now.
>
> An operating system has to work on all hardware. Asking people to buy a
> RYF approved device to run guixsd is no different than apple requiring you
> to buy an apple computer to run mac os x.

This is clearly hyperbole.  There are many pieces of hardware that are
not RYF certified and that work without firmware blobs.

> The FSDG and GNU philosophy prevent me from offering any kind of help
> and require me to do it hidden.

It is no exaggeration to say that Guix makes it easy to build kernel
variants.  Guix also makes it easy for people to share their packages
with others via “guix publish”.  Users can opt to run non-free software
either by building the packages themselves or by downloading substitutes
from people they trust who offer them.

However, as a project we don’t want to legitimise non-free software, so
we won’t offer recipes to install it.  We don’t look down on people who
run non-free software (unless they force or persuade other people to use
non-free software as well).  I’m not a bad person when I run proprietary
software; I’m the one harmed when using proprietary software.  As a
projet that distributes software we have a position in which we must
make a decision based on morals, and our decision is not to treat
proprietary software as a legitimate alternative.

This decision is reflected in the policy not to use official project
channels to promote the use of non-free software.  “Promote” includes
suggestions and instructions to build vanilla Linux (which includes more
than 150MB of binary blobs) to use hardware that forces them to either
use proprietary software or abandon the hardware.

As an aside, I’d also like to point you to an interview[1] with
Alexandre Oliva of Linux libre:

    Indeed, I became aware that some users have got the idea that
    blocking the loading of blobs is a feature. It's not; it's just a
    bug that's quite difficult to fix. The decision on whether or not to
    use a piece of software, be it Free or not, should belong to the
    users, and it's not our intent to make that difficult.

    What we don't want to do is to bait users into a trap, so our plan
    to address both issues above is to reinstate the requests, but using
    some form of hashing on the blob name so that, if you chose to
    install it, it will be found (by the kernel itself, or by a suitably
    modified hotplug script), but if you don't, it won't lead you to the
    trap.

[1]: https://www.fsfla.org/ikiwiki/blogs/lxo/2013-11-08-linux-libre-interview-by-bruce-byfield.en.html

--
Ricardo

GPG: BCA6 89B6 3655 3801 C3C6  2150 197A 5888 235F ACAC
https://elephly.net

Re: Leaving the guix project

[David Craven]

> unless they force or persuade other people to use non-free software as well

I hope this isn't a reference to the raspberry pi firmware. If you are
talking about this firmware [0], it boots Linux since the 3rd of Jan
2017. I do not follow the developments closely, but I hardly think
that this is something that can be recommended to a "non technical
user", but maybe you have a different opinion. In any case if I
recommend non-free firmware over a free counter part it is most likely
because I'm not aware that there is a usable alternative. In this
particular case I have not tried the firmware itself, and in any case
- bringing up a device with the existing stable firmware is a
prerequisite for further experimentation.

But you are right, I did not ask the user if he was ok with using the
raspberry pi exclusively over a uart cable without usb, ethernet or
video.

[0] https://github.com/christinaa/rpi-open-firmware/commit/34db573a45a03c9ba1bd11788a6cbaf5507faa53

Re: Leaving the guix project

[David Craven]

> There are many pieces of hardware that are not RYF certified and
> that work without firmware blobs.

I thought I had already argued the fact that, the fact that it works without
firmware blobs, does not mean that it is a more secure device, and in many
cases it may be much worse from a privacy perspective than than a device
that requires firmware blobs. See other discussion for the details.

The information that the device does not contain firmware blobs is only useful
in conjunction with the information that the device does not contain firmware
blobs in ROM, something that is not trivially determinable - if it is
determinable
at all.

Therefore excluding devices that require firmware blobs is not an effective
solution to privacy issues and requires a larger understanding of the hardware
itself.

So simply disallowing firmware blobs is a pointless restriction. I
never said that
people who want to use linux-libre should not use it.

There are downsides to not using binary blobs even when not strictly
required for
operation. Those include increased energy consumption, possible
unfixed bugs that
lead to data corruption or security vulnerabilities and external
modification by a third
party. And unless you tell the user the risks of not using binary
blobs you are presuming
what that user will decide, just as I presumed that if someone asks me
if you can run
the rpi without proprietary firmware he did not mean without usb,
ethernet or video.

> vanilla Linux (which includes more than 150MB of binary blobs)

Can you provide a reference? I can build a kernel that is way smaller
than 150MB,
so this clearly depends on the kernel configuration. I'm pretty sure
the kernel developers
care about free software too.

My current vanilla Linux is 11MB (compressed, modules linked in except
wifi), so I doubt that
there are 150MB of binary blobs in that archive. I have a single blob
loaded from
linux-firmware for the wifi card, I can find out how big it really is if you are
interested, but it's not 150MB.

But I'm not going to justify my actions any more.

Re: Leaving the guix project

[Ricardo Wurmus]

David Craven <david@craven.ch> writes:

>> vanilla Linux (which includes more than 150MB of binary blobs)
>
> Can you provide a reference?

I can’t find it any more (I think I saw it in an interview, but I cannot
find the article any more) and it looks like I was quite wrong about
this number.  My apologies!  It’s closer to a total of 6MB of blobs that
come with the sources of vanilla Linux (as of 4.10-rc8, checked by
comparing the uncompressed sources with a deblobbed version), most of
which are in the “firmware” directory.  Of course this doesn’t mean that
it’s 6MB in every compiled binary.

> I'm pretty sure the kernel developers care about free software too.

I’m not so sure given how there’s no official mechanism for users to
exclude blobs e.g. with a simple configuration flag.  The defects of
linux-libre which make it so that users have no choice whether to load
or refuse to load a blob are also a consequence of the general lack of
attention that kernel developers give to the issue of blobs.

Accepting pre-built binaries as part of kernel sources (6MB is quite a
lot of binary gibberish) is a strong indicator to me that at the very
least their concern for free software is expressed very differently from
mine.

> But I'm not going to justify my actions any more.

No need to justify anything.  We’re just expressing different
perspectives.

--
Ricardo

GPG: BCA6 89B6 3655 3801 C3C6  2150 197A 5888 235F ACAC
https://elephly.net

Re: Leaving the guix project

[David Craven]

> Accepting pre-built binaries as part of kernel sources

I don't think this is true either, or has not been for a very long
time (~7y?). If you look at the dates of the commits that added binary
blobs (i.e. the firmware directory), those are many years old. It is
an active effort to move the blobs out of the linux kernel into
linux-firmware. This requires rewriting drivers that do use binary
blobs. I'm also pretty sure they'd accept a patch to add a kernel
configuration option to not include these "old" drivers...

The linux kernel build system provides ways of building modules that
include binary blobs - but I don't think those are accepted into
mainline anymore, it's just a mechanism that some companies still
require to provide out of tree board support packages etc.

Re: Leaving the guix project

[Ricardo Wurmus]

David Craven <david@craven.ch> writes:

>> unless they force or persuade other people to use non-free software as well
>
> I hope this isn't a reference to the raspberry pi firmware.

No, it’s not a reference.  I’m totally unaware of anything relating to
the Raspberry Pi.  It was a general statement.

-- 
Ricardo

GPG: BCA6 89B6 3655 3801 C3C6  2150 197A 5888 235F ACAC
https://elephly.net

Re: Leaving the guix project

[Alex Kost]

David Craven (2017-02-17 13:56 +0100) wrote:

>> I think if you posit a free software project that works in the way you
>> describe ("on its own"), it would work very much like Guile works
>> right now.
>
> An operating system has to work on all hardware. Asking people to buy a
> RYF approved device to run guixsd is no different than apple requiring you
> to buy an apple computer to run mac os x. Turning guixsd into an embedded
> system for RYF devices is not something I want to spend time and effort on. I
> can't with good conscience recommend to people to buy a usb wifi adapter to
> use guixsd when I believe they have much larger privacy issues in their devices.
>
> To be comfortable contributing to a free project I need to know that people are
> able to do whatever THEY want, with those contributions, and not what the FSF
> wants. The FSDG and GNU philosophy prevent me from offering any kind of help
> and require me to do it hidden. What really gets to me is that I feel
> - whether justly
> or not - that the FSF believes I need to feel shame for doing and recommending
> whatever I believe is best. The word "immoral" in this context is
> simply unacceptable
> to me.
>
> Compliance with the FSDG makes guix very much dependent on an
> external entity.

Thanks for this explanation.  Now I understand your point and I agree
with it!  I also don't like that by default GuixSD stricts itself to the
hardware supported by linux-libre.  If linux-libre didn't support all
the hardware on my computer, most likely I would not used GuixSD at all.

-- 
Alex

Re: Leaving the guix project

[Tomas Cech]

On Sun, 19 Feb 2017 19:30:31 +0100,
Alex Kost wrote:
> 
> David Craven (2017-02-17 13:56 +0100) wrote:
> 
> >> I think if you posit a free software project that works in the way you
> >> describe ("on its own"), it would work very much like Guile works
> >> right now.
> >
> > An operating system has to work on all hardware. Asking people to buy a
> > RYF approved device to run guixsd is no different than apple requiring you
> > to buy an apple computer to run mac os x. Turning guixsd into an embedded
> > system for RYF devices is not something I want to spend time and effort on. I
> > can't with good conscience recommend to people to buy a usb wifi adapter to
> > use guixsd when I believe they have much larger privacy issues in their devices.
> >
> > To be comfortable contributing to a free project I need to know that people are
> > able to do whatever THEY want, with those contributions, and not what the FSF
> > wants. The FSDG and GNU philosophy prevent me from offering any kind of help
> > and require me to do it hidden. What really gets to me is that I feel
> > - whether justly
> > or not - that the FSF believes I need to feel shame for doing and recommending
> > whatever I believe is best. The word "immoral" in this context is
> > simply unacceptable
> > to me.
> >
> > Compliance with the FSDG makes guix very much dependent on an
> > external entity.
> 
> Thanks for this explanation.  Now I understand your point and I agree
> with it!  I also don't like that by default GuixSD stricts itself to the
> hardware supported by linux-libre.  If linux-libre didn't support all
> the hardware on my computer, most likely I would not used GuixSD at all.

Running GuixSD on HW not fully supported by linux-libre is painful for
me as well. I remember my first time success with GuixSD - after some
coffee and sweating I managed to deploy and boot GuixSD on my notebook
which had WiFi card requiring firmware to run. I wasn't able to fix
missing package without reboot.

It took me some time to get with my own kernel (vanilla
based) and initrd on top of Guix (especially as Guile is still
language barrier for me).

I'd love to see some coordinated effort outside of (or better on top of)
Guix to share such work.

I value the freedom, I like the way that Guix cares about it. Yet I
want and need to do something with my computer as well and this could
help sometimes:)

So, guys, where are your GIT repositories for GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH?

S_W

Re: Leaving the guix project

[John Darrington]

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On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 09:59:05AM +0100, Tomas Cech wrote:

     Running GuixSD on HW not fully supported by linux-libre is painful for
     me as well. I remember my first time success with GuixSD - after some
     coffee and sweating I managed to deploy and boot GuixSD on my notebook
     which had WiFi card requiring firmware to run. I wasn't able to fix
     missing package without reboot.
     
     It took me some time to get with my own kernel (vanilla
     based) and initrd on top of Guix (especially as Guile is still
     language barrier for me).
     
     I'd love to see some coordinated effort outside of (or better on top of)
     Guix to share such work.

IMO a better way to spend your effort would be:-

1. Writing free drivers for the devices which are not in linux-libre and submitting
them a patch; OR

2. Helping the development of low cost hardware which on which fully free software
can run; OR

3. Undertake extra paid employment in some activity (not necessarily computer related)
which benefits the community, and spend the mony you earn to purchase harware on which
GuixSD runs better.
     

J'

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Re: Leaving the guix project

[ng0]

On 17-02-20 14:25:51, John Darrington wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 09:59:05AM +0100, Tomas Cech wrote:
> 
>      Running GuixSD on HW not fully supported by linux-libre is painful for
>      me as well. I remember my first time success with GuixSD - after some
>      coffee and sweating I managed to deploy and boot GuixSD on my notebook
>      which had WiFi card requiring firmware to run. I wasn't able to fix
>      missing package without reboot.
>      
>      It took me some time to get with my own kernel (vanilla
>      based) and initrd on top of Guix (especially as Guile is still
>      language barrier for me).
>      
>      I'd love to see some coordinated effort outside of (or better on top of)
>      Guix to share such work.
> 
> IMO a better way to spend your effort would be:-
> 
> 1. Writing free drivers for the devices which are not in linux-libre and submitting
> them a patch; OR

I wonder if either linux or linux-libre have a list of devices which can
absolutely NOT be written free drivers for for whatever of the multiple
reasons companies can come up with to go legal against reverse engineering.

Resources are, well useful to have.

> 2. Helping the development of low cost hardware which on which fully free software
> can run; OR
> 
> 3. Undertake extra paid employment in some activity (not necessarily computer related)
> which benefits the community, and spend the mony you earn to purchase harware on which
> GuixSD runs better.
>      
> 
> J'
> 
> -- 
> Avoid eavesdropping.  Send strong encrypted email.
> PGP Public key ID: 1024D/2DE827B3 
> fingerprint = 8797 A26D 0854 2EAB 0285  A290 8A67 719C 2DE8 27B3
> See http://sks-keyservers.net or any PGP keyserver for public key.
> 

Re: Leaving the guix project

[Mike Gerwitz]

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On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 14:25:51 +0100, John Darrington wrote:
> 3. Undertake extra paid employment in some activity (not necessarily computer related)
> which benefits the community, and spend the mony you earn to purchase harware on which
> GuixSD runs better.

To add: certain things (like Wifi) do not require a full system
replacement, either: adapters/cards of various sorts are available.

I unfortunately haven't owned a laptop where the stock hardware works
with free drivers; I have a ThinkPenguin wireless USB dongle that I plug
into whatever I need to work with.  In some laptops, you can simply
remove and replace the built-in wireless card.

-- 
Mike Gerwitz
Free Software Hacker+Activist | GNU Maintainer & Volunteer
GPG: D6E9 B930 028A 6C38 F43B  2388 FEF6 3574 5E6F 6D05
Old: 2217 5B02 E626 BC98 D7C0  C2E5 F22B B815 8EE3 0EAB
https://mikegerwitz.com

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Re: Leaving the guix project

[David Craven]

> In some laptops, you can simply remove and replace the built-in wireless card.

In most you can not. And I don't know of a way to tell if it is
possible without trying it. What about laptops that don't have usb
ports anymore? Are there any free USB-C wifi dongles yet? What about
laptops that have a single usb port? you can only plugin a thumbdrive
or use wifi?

Re: Leaving the guix project

[Mike Gerwitz]

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On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 14:13:45 +0100, David Craven wrote:
> In most you can not. And I don't know of a way to tell if it is
> possible without trying it.

The card will either be soldered or be inserted into a slot much like a
PCI card.  It sometimes has its own area on the outside of the case;
otherwise it's easy to find because the antennas that connect to it
usually go to the monitor or other corners of the case.

> What about laptops that don't have usb ports anymore? Are there any
> free USB-C wifi dongles yet?

USB-C -> USB adapter.

> What about laptops that have a single usb port? you can only plugin a
> thumbdrive or use wifi?

Does the kernel linux support multi USB port adapters?  I've been
meaning to try.

I'm not saying this is ideal.  I have only two USB ports on my C201
Chromebook.  I use a Wifi dongle or pair my Replicant phone for Internet
access, leaving me with only one free port, which usually houses my
Nitrokey.  If I need more ports, I'll need an adapter.  Sometimes such
laptops come with {,Micro}SD card readers (mine does), which is also an
alternative to a flash drive.

Many of us are used to having to make sacrifices for freedom.  Hopefully
one day this won't be necessary.

-- 
Mike Gerwitz
Free Software Hacker+Activist | GNU Maintainer & Volunteer
GPG: D6E9 B930 028A 6C38 F43B  2388 FEF6 3574 5E6F 6D05
Old: 2217 5B02 E626 BC98 D7C0  C2E5 F22B B815 8EE3 0EAB
https://mikegerwitz.com

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Re: Leaving the guix project

[David Craven]

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Exactly why I'm leaving. You prefer to spread and force your religion on to
people, and don't really care about anything other than that.

On Feb 22, 2017 05:54, "Mike Gerwitz" <mtg@gnu.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 14:13:45 +0100, David Craven wrote:
> > In most you can not. And I don't know of a way to tell if it is
> > possible without trying it.
>
> The card will either be soldered or be inserted into a slot much like a
> PCI card.  It sometimes has its own area on the outside of the case;
> otherwise it's easy to find because the antennas that connect to it
> usually go to the monitor or other corners of the case.
>
> > What about laptops that don't have usb ports anymore? Are there any
> > free USB-C wifi dongles yet?
>
> USB-C -> USB adapter.
>
> > What about laptops that have a single usb port? you can only plugin a
> > thumbdrive or use wifi?
>
> Does the kernel linux support multi USB port adapters?  I've been
> meaning to try.
>
> I'm not saying this is ideal.  I have only two USB ports on my C201
> Chromebook.  I use a Wifi dongle or pair my Replicant phone for Internet
> access, leaving me with only one free port, which usually houses my
> Nitrokey.  If I need more ports, I'll need an adapter.  Sometimes such
> laptops come with {,Micro}SD card readers (mine does), which is also an
> alternative to a flash drive.
>
> Many of us are used to having to make sacrifices for freedom.  Hopefully
> one day this won't be necessary.
>
> --
> Mike Gerwitz
> Free Software Hacker+Activist | GNU Maintainer & Volunteer
> GPG: D6E9 B930 028A 6C38 F43B  2388 FEF6 3574 5E6F 6D05
> Old: 2217 5B02 E626 BC98 D7C0  C2E5 F22B B815 8EE3 0EAB
> https://mikegerwitz.com
>

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Re: Leaving the guix project

[John Darrington]

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On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 02:54:32PM +0100, David Craven wrote:
     Exactly why I'm leaving. You prefer to spread and force your religion on to
     people, 

No we don't.  

One of the defining principles of free software is that nobody is forced into 
anything.  And we never do it.   In fact that forcing people into things is 
exactly what we OPPOSE.

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Re: Leaving the guix project

[David Craven]

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Yeah exactly, you only force people to buy your crappy hardware and while
you care so much about freedom, freedom of speech and information you do
not give a shit about. You prefer to lie to unknowing users, telling them
how firmware in ROM is so much better while I know you're full of shit and
all of this because of an arbitrary line RMS drew.

On Feb 22, 2017 14:58, "John Darrington" <john@darrington.wattle.id.au>
wrote:

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 02:54:32PM +0100, David Craven wrote:
     Exactly why I'm leaving. You prefer to spread and force your religion
on to
     people,

No we don't.

One of the defining principles of free software is that nobody is forced
into
anything.  And we never do it.   In fact that forcing people into things is
exactly what we OPPOSE.

--
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PGP Public key ID: 1024D/2DE827B3
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Re: Leaving the guix project

[David Craven]

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Also note how that line was conviniently drawn just barely outside of what
the Linux project was doing at the time, I guess most likely so that he
could still find developers to build his Hurd by saying "Linux does not
respect your freedoms"

On Feb 22, 2017 15:06, "David Craven" <david@craven.ch> wrote:

> Yeah exactly, you only force people to buy your crappy hardware and while
> you care so much about freedom, freedom of speech and information you do
> not give a shit about. You prefer to lie to unknowing users, telling them
> how firmware in ROM is so much better while I know you're full of shit and
> all of this because of an arbitrary line RMS drew.
>
> On Feb 22, 2017 14:58, "John Darrington" <john@darrington.wattle.id.au>
> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 02:54:32PM +0100, David Craven wrote:
>      Exactly why I'm leaving. You prefer to spread and force your religion
> on to
>      people,
>
> No we don't.
>
> One of the defining principles of free software is that nobody is forced
> into
> anything.  And we never do it.   In fact that forcing people into things is
> exactly what we OPPOSE.
>
> --
> Avoid eavesdropping.  Send strong encrypted email.
> PGP Public key ID: 1024D/2DE827B3
> fingerprint = 8797 A26D 0854 2EAB 0285  A290 8A67 719C 2DE8 27B3
> See http://sks-keyservers.net or any PGP keyserver for public key.
>
>
>

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Re: Leaving the guix project

[Clément Lassieur]

> Also note how that line was conviniently drawn just barely outside of what
> the Linux project was doing at the time, I guess most likely so that he
> could still find developers to build his Hurd by saying "Linux does not
> respect your freedoms"

I'm not sure what line you are talking about, but the GNU Project
started in 1983, the FSF started in 1985, while Linux began in 1991.

Re: Leaving the guix project

[David Craven]

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And the Hurd has been in development since 1990, so started at roughly the
same time as the Linux kernel. Misleading information again. Hurd and Linux
started out as competitors.

On Feb 22, 2017 3:44 PM, "Clément Lassieur" <clement@lassieur.org> wrote:

> Also note how that line was conviniently drawn just barely outside of what
> the Linux project was doing at the time, I guess most likely so that he
> could still find developers to build his Hurd by saying "Linux does not
> respect your freedoms"

I'm not sure what line you are talking about, but the GNU Project
started in 1983, the FSF started in 1985, while Linux began in 1991.

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Re: Leaving the guix project

[Pjotr Prins]

I suggest we drop this thread. It belongs elsewhere.

Pj.

Re: Leaving the guix project

[Clément Lassieur]

David Craven <david@craven.ch> writes:

> Yeah exactly, you only force people to buy your crappy hardware and while
> you care so much about freedom, freedom of speech and information you do
> not give a shit about. You prefer to lie to unknowing users, telling them
> how firmware in ROM is so much better while I know you're full of shit and
> all of this because of an arbitrary line RMS drew.

The fact that you are expressing your opinions shows how much we care
about freedom of speech.

And I don't think anyone lies while saying out loud what she believes is
right.

Re: Leaving the guix project

[Leo Famulari]

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 03:06:19PM +0100, David Craven wrote:
> Yeah exactly, you only force people to buy your crappy hardware and while
> you care so much about freedom, freedom of speech and information you do
> not give a shit about. You prefer to lie to unknowing users, telling them
> how firmware in ROM is so much better while I know you're full of shit and
> all of this because of an arbitrary line RMS drew.
> 
> On Feb 22, 2017 14:58, "John Darrington" <john@darrington.wattle.id.au>
> wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 02:54:32PM +0100, David Craven wrote:
>      Exactly why I'm leaving. You prefer to spread and force your religion
> on to
>      people,
> 
> No we don't.
> 
> One of the defining principles of free software is that nobody is forced
> into
> anything.  And we never do it.   In fact that forcing people into things is
> exactly what we OPPOSE.
> 
> --
> Avoid eavesdropping.  Send strong encrypted email.
> PGP Public key ID: 1024D/2DE827B3
> fingerprint = 8797 A26D 0854 2EAB 0285  A290 8A67 719C 2DE8 27B3
> See http://sks-keyservers.net or any PGP keyserver for public key.

Please, everyone, can we try to keep this discussion civil?

The fact that we all find ourself on this mailing list makes me think
that we all care about free software in some way or another.

It's true that within that broad idea we have different values and
preferences, but I think we should be more generous when interpreting
each others' messages.

Re: Leaving the guix project

[Mathieu Lirzin]

Leo Famulari <leo@famulari.name> writes:

> Please, everyone, can we try to keep this discussion civil?
>
> The fact that we all find ourself on this mailing list makes me think
> that we all care about free software in some way or another.
>
> It's true that within that broad idea we have different values and
> preferences, but I think we should be more generous when interpreting
> each others' messages.

For christ sake, love you each other! :)

Joke aside, I agree with you Leo.

I agree with Pjotr too, I think it is time to drop this thread.

-- 
Mathieu Lirzin
GPG: F2A3 8D7E EB2B 6640 5761  070D 0ADE E100 9460 4D37

Re: Leaving the guix project

[Ricardo Wurmus]

David Craven <david@craven.ch> writes:

> Yeah exactly, you only force people to buy your crappy hardware and while
> you care so much about freedom, freedom of speech and information you do
> not give a shit about. You prefer to lie to unknowing users, telling them
> how firmware in ROM is so much better while I know you're full of shit and
> all of this because of an arbitrary line RMS drew.

People, please keep this civil.  This is not the kind of language we
want to see on our mailing list.

If we cannot discuss things in a respectful manner we shouldn’t discuss
at all.  I think we’ve reached a point at which every point has been
stated and restated, so let’s drop it.

Clearly, we won’t come to an agreement here, so let’s get back to more
fun things like doing the one thing we do agree on: writing free
software.

--
Ricardo

GPG: BCA6 89B6 3655 3801 C3C6  2150 197A 5888 235F ACAC
https://elephly.net

Re: Leaving the guix project

[Alex Kost]

Tomas Cech (2017-02-20 09:59 +0100) wrote:

[...]
> So, guys, where are your GIT repositories for GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH?

There are several links here:

  https://gitlab.com/rain1/guix-wiki/wikis/Packaging

-- 
Alex

Re: Leaving the guix project (rust question)

[ng0]

On 17-02-16 01:14:15, David Craven wrote:
> Hello guixers!
> 
> I am very grateful for all the things I could learn during my time
> here and all the awesome work that you guys put in.
> 
> But I wish to leave the guix project and that my savannah account be
> removed. This is not a decision I make lightly. The reason why I
> decided it was time to move on is because I do not wish to be part of
> GNU or the FSF.
> 
> I believe that the reason why free software is better and will always
> be better than non-free software, is because of all the love and care
> that we put in. It's about building cool and awesome stuff. I think
> that this is the reason free software has become a viable alternative
> to non-free software.
> 
> I also believe that the gnu project has moved away from those core
> values and focuses instead on petitioning websites and hardware
> manufacturers to release work they have invested a lot of money in
> developing, often in very pushy and uncivil ways. Even if they
> succeed, I do not really care about this expensive, rushed to market
> and badly engineered code. I believe that the free software community
> can do much better on it's own.
> 
> I hope you can understand and respect my decision.
> 
> David
> 

Hi,

sorry to see you leave. Thanks for all your contributions and the time
shared with the project.

I have a question, were you working on some rust problems (circular
dependencies, etc) already and if so could you share the progress and
discussions with upstream which might've happened already at some
accessible place? That would be nice.

Re: Leaving the guix project

[Jan Nieuwenhuizen]

David Craven writes:

Hi David,

> But I wish to leave the guix project and that my savannah account be
> removed. This is not a decision I make lightly. The reason why I
> decided it was time to move on is because I do not wish to be part of
> GNU or the FSF.

Sad to see you leave.  There was a question the other day about the
state of KDE, I remember you worked quite hard on that.  If you do
not want to be [seen as] part of GNU, I can imagine that working on
Guix becomes difficult.

> I believe that the reason why free software is better and will always
>be better than non-free software, is because of all the love and care
>that we put in. It's about building cool and awesome stuff. I think
>that this is the reason free software has become a viable alternative
>to non-free software.

If free software is better that's at best a happy coincidence.  Possibly
some people find it difficult to put love and care into something that
in the end is owned by someone else?  I'm not sure if that is a
universal rule or if it's merely a cultural/ego thing.

To me, running GNU today has very little to do with it being better: it
is because of the freedom that I think GNU is important and fun.

> I also believe that the gnu project has moved away from those core
> values

What makes you think that?  GNU is and has been (building) a UNIX-like
system but free; not unix.  Quoting gnu.org:

    GNU is an operating system that is free software—that is, it
    respects users' freedom.

    The development of GNU made it possible to use a computer without
    software that would trample your freedom.

> and focuses instead on petitioning websites and hardware
> manufacturers to release work they have invested a lot of money in
> developing, often in very pushy and uncivil ways. Even if they
> succeed, I do not really care about this expensive, rushed to market
> and badly engineered code. I believe that the free software community
> can do much better on it's own.

I am sad that you have seen such things, I cannot relate to this.

> I hope you can understand and respect my decision.

Sure; thanks and all the best!
Greetings, --janneke

-- 
Jan Nieuwenhuizen <janneke@gnu.org> | GNU LilyPond http://lilypond.org
Freelance IT http://JoyofSource.com | Avatar®  http://AvatarAcademy.nl  

Re: Leaving the guix project

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hello David,

This is bad news for my first day back from vacations (I knew I should
have stayed on vacation!  ;-)).

I’m sad to see you leave.  I understand we have disagreements on the
project’s goals, and I respect that.  The goals haven’t changed since
Day 1 though, and I think it’s a project where we can both have fun
(make cool technical contributions) and help further user freedom.

You have made lots of great contributions to this project that truly
made a difference; they will be missed.  I wish you the best for your
future free software endeavors!

Ludo’.

Re: Leaving the guix project

[David Craven]

Hi Ludo,

> I knew I should have stayed on vacation!

Hope you had a nice vacation :)

> The goals haven’t changed since Day 1 though.

I realize that. When I started using/contributing to guix I was not
fully aware of what that meant.

One important thing that has changed for me is that I no longer
believe that not using binary firmware blobs is a better option in
>every< case.

The problem also became real when I actually started using guixsd on
my devices and started considering putting it on other peoples devices
- like my mother's and some other people I help with their IT problems
from time to time.

It is not uncommon for people to be scared into buying a new computer
because "windows XP or Vista is no longer supported" by chrome or
whatever. My goal is to allow people to be able to check their email
and do some webbrowsing on their existing devices.

Using guixsd should decrease my "support" effort not increase it. This
requires that some basic features that users expect work - say
chromium - with all the google SaaS features, and not require users to
buy new devices. The less hardware guixsd supports the higher my risk.
- An old printer doesn't work - the wifi card doesn't work - whatever
else - is a risk for me.

And while I think that the FSDG as it is written for the most part is
a good ideal, it seems that often the "essential freedoms" are not the
only important thing. This also affects other GNU projects. Examples
would be gcc not being modular (creating the need for llvm) and emacs
not supporting lldb. So in practice free software is not software that
respects the essential freedoms, but has a much more narrow definition
which involves unwritten laws no one can read or understand.

Having grown up in an extremely religious environment I have
difficulty accepting religious behavior. While philosophy guides
decision making, to me the difference is when following a strict set
of rules becomes more important than the goal and motivation behind
them.

I've found a new goal of porting rust to riscv and improving llvm
support for riscv, with a whole load of new things to learn. The
barrier to entry to the llvm project seems to be much lower than gcc.
And since I'm learning a lot of "concepts" as I go a modular codebase
is really important...

David

Re: Leaving the guix project

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hello David,

Thanks for providing feedback.

You make it sound like GuixSD is unusable on real hardware due to the
lack of proprietary firmware, but reality is different.  I think this
section I wrote a while back pretty accurately reflects the situation:

  https://gnu.org/software/guix/manual/html_node/Hardware-Considerations.html

On many laptops WiFi doesn’t work out of the box because they come with
Intel WiFi chips and Intel denies its customers the 4 freedoms,
security, and privacy.  Lack of WiFi is an important issue of course,
but it’s easily worked around and it’s pretty much the only issue.

Perhaps you take hardware support in GNU/Linux for granted.  When I
started using GNU/Linux, things like sound support or graphics mode
support or webcams would often be missing—things were a lot more
difficult in practice.  It’s the dedicated work of volunteers that
brought us drivers for all this.

I don’t feel any pressure to give in proprietary software for the extra
1% convenience it’d bring me.

Now, as others pointed out, GuixSD doesn’t prevent you from running the
software you want.  As you know, GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH serves this purpose:
you can easily extend the distro and tweak it to your needs.

One last thing: please don’t describe political struggles as “religion.”
It’s unnecessarily offensive, especially when talking to an atheist.

Happy hacking, and consider using ‘guix environment’ to ease your new
hacking life!  :-)

Ludo’.

Re: Leaving the guix project

[ng0]

Ludovic Courtès transcribed 1.6K bytes:
[…] 
> Perhaps you take hardware support in GNU/Linux for granted.  When I
> started using GNU/Linux, things like sound support or graphics mode
> support or webcams would often be missing—things were a lot more
> difficult in practice.  It’s the dedicated work of volunteers that
> brought us drivers for all this.

I remember the struggle of getting wifi to work on Zenwalk with no
easy internet access to search for what works and what doesn't, and the
support was super limited in the late 90s / early 2000s.
What we have in 2017 is a mountain of resources, yet I still hope for
intel to become supported out of the box in -libre, some support for AC
wifi, etc.

I like your decision to work closer on hardware, David. If I had the
personal resources for it, I'd work my way towards it aswell.
I wish you all the best for your new efforts and projects, maybe our
paths cross again in this small world of hacking.

[…]
> Ludo’.
> 

Re: Leaving the guix project

[Adonay Felipe Nogueira]

Note: This message is of course not meant to be rude, and not meant to be "the
source of absolute truth", so please take it lightly.

Only for this message, and for the sake of easier understanding, the
term "promote" will be used in this message as synonym for the following:
install, share, sell, teach usage of, recommend.

The problem of promoting non-free software (or functional data, which
covers broader and true object of the movement) is that the promoter
ends up propagating at least one moral dilemma, and worse than that, an
immediate one.

The immediate moral dilemma goes like this: Person A receives (thus
immediate) a software for which he's permitted to use, however, he's
forbidden to share (redistribute non-commercially) copies of the
original work, and after some time, person B asks A if A can share the
software. Average people would usually see two evils, one worse (deny
sharing, and be respect the first agreement), and other lesser (help B,
and break the first agreement). However, as explained in the following
references, free/libre software activists must anticipate this dilemma
by denying receiving the work:

-
  [[https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/google-engineering-talk.html#freedom-2-moral-dilemma]]
- Previous reference, #freedom-2-spirit-of-good-will .
- [[https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/applying-free-sw-criteria.html]]

Exceptions for these issues apply when non-free software is used as
means to install other free/libre software that is going to be replacing
the non-free one entirely, or when the user is determined to test parts
of free/libre software together with non-free ones so as to help a
complete free/libre replacement be developed (this was how GNU project
itself grew initially), as described at [[https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/is-ever-good-use-nonfree-program.html]].

This doesn't mean however, that "free/libre software activists can't use
non-free software", they can, but only for personal use. The risks are
theirs for the taking. Also, one must consider that actions sometimes
convey ideas, so one must make sure to be always moving towards
free/libre computing, when and where such move is permitted, finantially
and technically
([[http://www.fsf.org/resources/hw/endorsement/criteria]]).

As a personal note: my first thought was to simply reply to this
discussion by saying "Do not promote non-free software to people, and
explain to them what is the problem, and you'll be making your support
requests, and our support requests more easy to deal with" (note the
special meaning of "promote"), but I figured that this long comment must
be used instead, otherwise the reply wouldn't be of much use. However,
the original reply is still valid but so: ...

Do not promote non-free software to people, and explain to them what is
the problem, and you'll be making your support requests, and our support
requests more easy to deal with. :)

Also, it's a good idea to tell people to consult you regularly about
hardware, technologies, network services, websites, and software,
specially because they are the nearlest free/libre software activist
they might trust (as long as you remain one, of course). In case of
doubt, you always have general discussion lists such as
libreplanet-discuss. If everything fails, go for the worst case scenario
of "something" being unfriedly to free/libre software movement, or with
"unknown" status of friendliness, at least it's better than making a ruinous compromise ([[https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/compromise.html]]).

About LLVM/Clang: Perhaps due to the fact that I'm not a programmer, I can't
understand why on Earth LLVM/Clang even exists, it's like this plethora
of financial/accounting/chat/social-network/whatever free/libre software
that exist and that which none seem to interoperate well with
eachother, or that which none seem to be aiming for the same goals of
the free/libre software movement (although their source code and
licenses are compatible with free/libre software). Even worse, some of
these have the so called "open core" model, and some other harmful
practices like offering different licenses (assumed to be proprietary,
or permissive/non-copyleft) for people who pay for the software, instead
of requiring everyone to pay for the same free/libre software.

Sometimes I receive emails and phone calls from people saying that GCC
doesn't allow "modules", and I tell them: Well, perhaps there is a
mistake in goals here, why would I want a module if I can have
adaptations, alas, it's free/libre software, I can even hire someone to
make adaptations for me. As an important note: if you do some searching
at the wiki of the GCC project, you'll see that there is an effort to
make it modular. Now, still replying to those people who call me from
time to time, I usually end my argumentations by saying the following:
The problem isn't GCC's lack of modularity, quite the contrary, the
problem is on LLVM/Clang's lack of measures to protect software freedom
in the long term for the end/average users, and this has nothing to do
with modularity or no modularity, as can be found by reading the
following references:

- [[https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/applying-free-sw-criteria.html]]
- [[https://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2014-01/msg00247.html]]

The same argumentations regarding LLVM/Clang and GCC, apply to Emacs not
supporting LLDB.

So as a recommendation to fix the issue, we can do either (based on
[[https://sfconservancy.org/videos/2015-01-15_Bradley-Kuhn_Future-of-Copyleft_LCA-2015.webm]]):

- Do a very important [A]GPL'd optimization to LLVM/Clang project, and
  write/fund researches about such, such that LLVM/Clang project is
  tempted to incorporate those.
- As a personal suggestion: Improve GCC such that it becomes way
  superior than LLVM/Clang. I have seen people saying that GCC and
  LLVM/Clang are at par with each other in everything in regards to
  things similar to speed and optimization.

Re: Leaving the guix project

[Rodger Fox]

> I suggest we drop this thread. It belongs elsewhere.
> 
> Pj.

+1