From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp12.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:306:2d92::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms9.migadu.com with LMTPS id MDOIAMgE7mR/RAEAauVa8A:P1 (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 29 Aug 2023 16:46:32 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:306:2d92::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp12.migadu.com with LMTPS id MDOIAMgE7mR/RAEAauVa8A (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 29 Aug 2023 16:46:32 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AED3E3B20B for ; Tue, 29 Aug 2023 16:46:31 +0200 (CEST) Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=gmail.com header.s=20221208 header.b=iCaLNnzw; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=gmail.com (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "bug-guix-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="bug-guix-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1693320391; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding:resent-cc: resent-from:resent-sender:resent-message-id:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=V8ajGl5FkWGlWexSFs06Y9TjdpZ3/+FLwoy/a5HYfAo=; b=kuwSvyedUxYEabuQlzApUf6hV9LMkqvwiXcyR0qF/AtS7hXp7QXGlpEHJS/Jz2jEsxqxyr KC56OsF5Q/Dhc+EGtQSFIXUpi7g3wBdvq+p/U/Sg1VoICeKCjfHgL2rjmRIleZX2VkiOqE PdnhVnt2ThctXPBlxBICnaJoF50PmKmgtZcO4NXOwqjndjEG8ei1Ani7+SU2YY2Gz/qj3U RMnDg94e6vGtcsOoAdBFYs5FgUIw6aqMjZ3H2osETwCNSAGC8szb/mC/TNsfHLoZQZcOI9 oVLByJwo8AhdmnFd39xsSMLgfBZ/y0lOgOVLJqguLgfAnx6CJWlLDpwul2GDRw== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1693320391; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=iYinZcwgu/WLUKWc00+czq/HC0KhZCakIM2SeFn3UKosMpSYOIFqNk70FkxZvdb7VDuXcw ZkDOzyL4xZVitsin4H7FDqD5fAFxRlo7YSAUhjQ0s17jUlmt/0E3rsvkYhWc3lZobhqnwu Vu5KSC0w/ZOzfghQkU2+Nxy+gVj5B1ZOV1Y67nGRQIIaUokEkjemXs+S8Kd01xajJ2hH8+ Vzlh+AuA3d3LWNCGIwH+YMaRtRljrWtiZCxk2fuqk6lppbGS+jHMkm276DcUitiUs9dXzo ZwTFpriNAd3zeXoxEpORrlvzm9a/ynsrLGk8QMMmkUdOjoSuwsJK2/y9dcOG7Q== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=gmail.com header.s=20221208 header.b=iCaLNnzw; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=gmail.com (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "bug-guix-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="bug-guix-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qazzB-0002lD-63; Tue, 29 Aug 2023 10:46:29 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qazye-0002Zg-Qp for bug-guix@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Aug 2023 10:45:58 -0400 Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:5::43]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qazyd-0004WK-TD for bug-guix@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Aug 2023 10:45:56 -0400 Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qazyk-0001TK-SD for bug-guix@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Aug 2023 10:46:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#65391: Acknowledgement (People need to report failing builds even though we have ci.guix.gnu.org for that) Resent-From: Maxim Cournoyer Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-guix@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2023 14:46:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 65391 X-GNU-PR-Package: guix X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Maxime Devos Cc: Andy Tai , Bruno Victal , Csepp , =?UTF-8?Q?=E5=AE=8B=E6=96=87=E6=AD=A6?= , 65391@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 65391-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B65391.16933203315603 (code B ref 65391); Tue, 29 Aug 2023 14:46:02 +0000 Received: (at 65391) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Aug 2023 14:45:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51362 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qazyE-0001SI-W7 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Aug 2023 10:45:31 -0400 Received: from mail-qk1-x72f.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::72f]:42310) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qazyD-0001S5-8v for 65391@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Aug 2023 10:45:30 -0400 Received: by mail-qk1-x72f.google.com with SMTP id af79cd13be357-76f036041b4so143447985a.1 for <65391@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 29 Aug 2023 07:45:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1693320316; x=1693925116; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:user-agent:message-id :in-reply-to:date:references:subject:cc:to:from:from:to:cc:subject :date:message-id:reply-to; bh=V8ajGl5FkWGlWexSFs06Y9TjdpZ3/+FLwoy/a5HYfAo=; b=iCaLNnzwA4m+3n81sOIDnR6CFLDgJlEt9nx1H2HKz+kqDVnmxbjk5jiKqyqvqMmIc0 amZ5OwmSA5UpWM7HucfoiGewTNql2j2/vf8F3c8WPyFsDHvVMwwCA9a3TGi630ULG2Pa 3J3025GIH/8hmT/lfWtgzh32CW4yaHavVEPJ5htn0s3gIsYTl4jGJBx36CxyTrPpsmw3 /qwZkKRka3V5aNgvRlpPNzlpVKzhRPBoKuX4ddJGVaO0koedFHEEdFVw0/YMxMtfKe7q 0PUO9YJhPUkannIusvfM5PNbsHGv27640Fj2vB9jDt61JOvP/jZMYpv3pUgXL4tcbHHY SR3w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1693320316; x=1693925116; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:user-agent:message-id :in-reply-to:date:references:subject:cc:to:from:x-gm-message-state :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=V8ajGl5FkWGlWexSFs06Y9TjdpZ3/+FLwoy/a5HYfAo=; b=LCKzvT/ieLB2dD7ubWeuR6JFax56FmVWFuFb/N9GOgaLrvz6fbCcVVbmKY/7rz3Wak GSC39QmkRhIPU9CU/qzc3IIpkp/Q8Di84JyQRgLxhDZDuMJq3O4LzUPuUCxfVNfd4pyV vmj2zF4aXVdNxK1UroQM/OK2QMOXPCcDuhfDoMopjLl97AW3MLUBlKKFkfX+2M7O7gu0 75fogEF4PDYAJbZGnyCMyVxzEYdxHLfEDABRiLz7pYyMm1Go1By2N4S0w/Vf1NfSriE5 C3Km1buY8zIl7js9XAKOIcOtpT71+0vyUs9Ot4dWcmNUD/9iOn5zyAIV8ggZ4anm42Uy BF6w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yzco4ITRI10DTt5MkalEjSMmLbpyjr1XFVQ/hb2mhASwIr0/DK/ 7GIml2V7Jq3TEjhNJ9vwUgQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEJWHnI4zelwvf/R7zv4hC2GOG1xx0QOllfLoq+W+hHcg3dTVDhx0DHvTiuK08hgzO9h/oFHA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:e99:b0:76c:e566:2dab with SMTP id w25-20020a05620a0e9900b0076ce5662dabmr2779022qkm.33.1693320316529; Tue, 29 Aug 2023 07:45:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hurd (dsl-10-132-204.b2b2c.ca. [72.10.132.204]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id f23-20020a05620a12f700b0076ef0fb5050sm3144159qkl.31.2023.08.29.07.45.15 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 29 Aug 2023 07:45:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Maxim Cournoyer References: <295ef8c8-574a-4169-98f3-6d9aaeb773f1@telenet.be> <6a62aced-9138-0496-fb01-d5d8e89ba8d6@telenet.be> Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2023 10:45:15 -0400 In-Reply-To: <6a62aced-9138-0496-fb01-d5d8e89ba8d6@telenet.be> (Maxime Devos's message of "Tue, 29 Aug 2023 16:03:22 +0200") Message-ID: <87h6ohc3gk.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-guix@gnu.org List-Id: Bug reports for GNU Guix List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-guix-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: bug-guix-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Spam-Score: 2.78 X-Spam-Score: 2.78 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: AED3E3B20B X-Migadu-Scanner: mx2.migadu.com X-TUID: R9mFK7SeGeZp Hi Maxime, Maxime Devos writes: > (I did not receive the e-mails from Andy Tai and =E5=AE=8B=E6=96=87=E6=AD= =A6, I had to look > at .) > >> Maybe we can automatically report the failures as bugs, say every 7 >> days, and remove a package if it still fail to build in 90 days? > > The first part looks reasonable to me (though I would decrease 7 days > to daily or even hourly, as I don't see a point in the delay), but how > does the second part (removing packages) make sense at all? > > I mean, if you do that: > > 1. Build failures happen (independent of whether you do that). > 2. Hence, by doing that, the distro shrinks over time. > 3. Leading to frustrated users(*), because the packages they were > using and which were working well were suddenly removed for no good > reason (**). > 4. Leading to less people fixing build failures (because of the > frustration). We could bump the expiry time to 180 days, or even 365 days (a full year). If nobody opens an issue for a broken package in that amount of time, it's probably not used much if at all and may not be worth the maintenance burden. It can always be resurrected from the git history if someone is motivated to pick it up. Looking for removed packages from the git history could become a second instinct if this was made policy. We already have a yasnippet snippet that automates commit message for package removal: 'remove... TAB', which makes it easy to search for: --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- git log --grep=3D'gnu: Remove' commit 72abf72062f0e813efb633e05b42c99c4bc78cff Author: Maxim Cournoyer Date: Fri Aug 11 21:29:54 2023 -0400 gnu: Remove qtquickcontrols2. =20=20=20=20 * gnu/packages/qt.scm (qtquickcontrols2): Delete variable. (pyotherside) [inputs]: Remove qtquickcontrols2. [...]=20=20=20=20 --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- It's frustrating for users when a package is missing, but it's also frustrating/inefficient for maintainers to stumble upon broken packages when checking if an upgrade broke dependent packages (it takes time to build them just to find out they fail, and researching they already did), so a balance is needed. > which seems rather counter-productive to me. > > (I suppose the feedback loop eventually stabilises by =E2=80=98less peopl= e -> > less changes made to Guix -> less new build failures -> less > frustration=E2=80=99, but that's not really a good thing.) > > Instead, what about: > >> Maybe we can automatically report the failures as bugs, say every >> hour, and revert the commit(s) causing the new build failures if they >> haven't been fixed in a week. > (3 months seems to have to high a chance of merge conflicts and > decreased motivation to fix the mistakes to me.) > > Expanding upon this a bit more: > > * Expecting that people fix build failures of X when updating X seems > reasonable to me, and I think this is not in dispute. > > * Expecting that people using X fix build failures of X or risk the > package X being deleted when someone else changed a dependency Y of > X seems unreasonable to me. More generally, I am categorically > opposed to: > > =E2=80=98If you change something and it breaks something else, you s= hould > leave fixing the something else to someone (unless you want to > fix it yourself).=E2=80=99 > > (I can think of some situations where this is a good thing, but not > in general and in particular not in this Guix situation.) > > I mean, I don't know about you, but for me it fails the categorical > imperative and the so-called Golden Rule. I think we can all assume contributors are acting in good faith and are ready to fix any problems resulting from their installed changes; but they need to be made aware of these failures. Which to me suggests we (again) need better tooling (that's already improved much with the QA service, thanks to Christopher's efforts). It can still be improved; the QA could for example notify contributors by email when their patch or series have broken something, like the CI of forges typically do, or other UI improvements to make it easier to see what has been broken. Cuirass in particular would benefit from a status:failed-new (freshly broken) query ability. I think the data is already there, it just needs to be exposed. I've opened new feature requests for the CI to help with that: https://issues.guix.gnu.org/65594 ("[feature] [qa] Notify users by email of problems") and https://issues.guix.gnu.org/65595 ("[feature] [cuirass] Add ability to filter builds for status:failed-new"). Thanks for weighing in! --=20 Thanks, Maxim