* Re: package manager guix on Windows and OSX
2021-06-25 17:07 ` Joshua Branson
@ 2021-06-25 17:50 ` Jonathan McHugh
2021-06-25 20:56 ` jbranso
` (4 subsequent siblings)
5 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Jonathan McHugh @ 2021-06-25 17:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Joshua Branson; +Cc: Edouard Klein, help-guix
Hi Joshua,
A Guix-BSD hybrid would be delectable.
I consider the OpenBSD community to be excellent, not only for their
prioritising a tight kernel and high levels of security standards but
because they refuse to release updates until documentation such as
manpages are comprehensively written.
This final point is something which the Guix community needs to
improve - there is too much of a publish first - decribe later philosophy. As somebody still trying to fully master I get the feeling that
their are things which will elude me until I get enough battle scars and
my productivity will be hampered until I reach that sweet spot (or at
least become more proficient/confident at just asking!)
I should state that I consider the help-guix and devel-guix to be highly
informative, friendly and professional. There should be greater
expectations of contributors to explain their improved functionalities
in advance. Additionally, I hold your individual support to be
exemplary.
Additionally, while I understand that MIT is in many ways deficient
compared to GPL licenses, if not pernicious and counterproductive I do
empathise regarding why networking engineers may prefer having a licence
which permits encapsulation more readily.
Joshua Branson <jbranso@dismail.de> writes:
> Edouard Klein <edou@rdklein.fr> writes:
>>
>> To port Guix to another operating system such as BSD (including OSX),
>> one would have to translate these calls.
>>
>> For example, Guix is the only software I've actually encountered that
>> can not run in SmartOS' emulation of Linux, because the system calls it
>> uses are not implemented there.
>>
>> I would love for Guix to be a Multi Kernel package manager (I mean it
>> works on the Hurd also, but I have never encountered a Hurd user in real
>> life). My dream would be to port Guix to Plan 9 ;-)
>
> Why Plan 9? May I ask? And I do really like the Hurd, but I use the
> dvorak keyboard layout. My understanding is that the Hurd does not
> support variant keyboard layouts yet... :(
>
> I actually think that the Guix developers may want to consider a port to
> the OpenBSD kernel, provided that the Hyperbola developers get
> HyperbolaBSD working. Though I guess the Debian guys sort of did
> already. :)
>
> https://www.hyperbola.info/news/announcing-hyperbolabsd-roadmap/
>
--
Jonathan McHugh
indieterminacy@libre.brussels
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread* Re: package manager guix on Windows and OSX
2021-06-25 17:07 ` Joshua Branson
2021-06-25 17:50 ` Jonathan McHugh
@ 2021-06-25 20:56 ` jbranso
2021-06-25 23:18 ` indieterminacy
` (3 subsequent siblings)
5 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: jbranso @ 2021-06-25 20:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Jonathan McHugh; +Cc: Edouard Klein, Patricio Martínez, help-guix
June 25, 2021 1:53 PM, "Jonathan McHugh" <indieterminacy@libre.brussels> wrote:
> Hi Joshua,
>
> A Guix-BSD hybrid would be delectable.
>
> I consider the OpenBSD community to be excellent, not only for their
> prioritising a tight kernel and high levels of security standards but
> because they refuse to release updates until documentation such as
> manpages are comprehensively written.
That and their software is top notch! Linus called their developers
"masturbating monkeys", because of their obsessive pursuit of security!
hahaha. At every shutdown, the OpenBSD kernel is re-linked. It's the same
kernel when you reboot it, but the binary is re-ordered. That's amazing!
> This final point is something which the Guix community needs to
> improve - there is too much of a publish first - decribe later philosophy. As somebody still trying
> to fully master I get the feeling that
> their are things which will elude me until I get enough battle scars and
> my productivity will be hampered until I reach that sweet spot (or at
> least become more proficient/confident at just asking!)
My personal feeling is that GNU should adopt Org mode as their documentation
standard. It's slightly easier to use than texinfo. Thought texinfo is
pretty rad. :)
> I should state that I consider the help-guix and devel-guix to be highly
> informative, friendly and professional. There should be greater
> expectations of contributors to explain their improved functionalities
> in advance. Additionally, I hold your individual support to be
> exemplary.
Well thanks! I might mount that compliment on my wall!
> Additionally, while I understand that MIT is in many ways deficient
> compared to GPL licenses, if not pernicious and counterproductive I do
> empathise regarding why networking engineers may prefer having a licence
> which permits encapsulation more readily.
Well, what is interesting, is that the HyperbolaBSD developers intend to
rewrite 20% of the BSD kernel and license the whole project GPL. :)
What do you mean by:
> empathise regarding why networking engineers may prefer having a licence
> which permits encapsulation more readily.
> Joshua Branson <jbranso@dismail.de> writes:
>
>> Edouard Klein <edou@rdklein.fr> writes:
>
> To port Guix to another operating system such as BSD (including OSX),
> one would have to translate these calls.
>
> For example, Guix is the only software I've actually encountered that
> can not run in SmartOS' emulation of Linux, because the system calls it
> uses are not implemented there.
>
> I would love for Guix to be a Multi Kernel package manager (I mean it
> works on the Hurd also, but I have never encountered a Hurd user in real
> life). My dream would be to port Guix to Plan 9 ;-)
>> Why Plan 9? May I ask? And I do really like the Hurd, but I use the
>> dvorak keyboard layout. My understanding is that the Hurd does not
>> support variant keyboard layouts yet... :(
>>
>> I actually think that the Guix developers may want to consider a port to
>> the OpenBSD kernel, provided that the Hyperbola developers get
>> HyperbolaBSD working. Though I guess the Debian guys sort of did
>> already. :)
>>
>> https://www.hyperbola.info/news/announcing-hyperbolabsd-roadmap
>
> --
> Jonathan McHugh
> indieterminacy@libre.brussels
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread* Re: package manager guix on Windows and OSX
2021-06-25 17:07 ` Joshua Branson
2021-06-25 17:50 ` Jonathan McHugh
2021-06-25 20:56 ` jbranso
@ 2021-06-25 23:18 ` indieterminacy
2021-06-26 0:25 ` jbranso
` (2 subsequent siblings)
5 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: indieterminacy @ 2021-06-25 23:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: jbranso; +Cc: Edouard Klein, help-guix
There are many bawdy jokes Id like to make concerning that citation.
June 25, 2021 10:56 PM, jbranso@dismail.de wrote:
> That and their software is top notch! Linus called their developers
> "masturbating monkeys", because of their obsessive pursuit of security!
> hahaha. At every shutdown, the OpenBSD kernel is re-linked. It's the same
> kernel when you reboot it, but the binary is re-ordered. That's amazing!
Yes, they are highly capable and ambitious.
I picked up that information, having researched Hyperbola... based upon your prompt.
>> Additionally, while I understand that MIT is in many ways deficient
>> compared to GPL licenses, if not pernicious and counterproductive I do
>> empathise regarding why networking engineers may prefer having a licence
>> which permits encapsulation more readily.
>
> Well, what is interesting, is that the HyperbolaBSD developers intend to
> rewrite 20% of the BSD kernel and license the whole project GPL. :)
>
> My personal feeling is that GNU should adopt Org mode as their documentation
> standard. It's slightly easier to use than texinfo. Thought texinfo is
> pretty rad. :)
I love Latex, Context, I feel a bit weird for not having dabbled with Texinfo. Im not sure Texinfo is going to sway enough younger programmers (Im neither young nor old), I fear too many have been malconditioned into accepting delible communication techniques - Texinfo may no longer cut it.
I would consider Org mode to probably be the most acceptable default, though in many respects Skribilo could be more of a purer expression of a complete Guix approach. Are the aforementioned all different ways of dissuading people from considering Guix or documenting for it?
FYI, I have been wading into the Gemini protocol the last two months. Beyond its more noticable security and publishing advantages, I have been entranced by the terseness of its Gem .gmi (minimalist MarkDown) format. I consider it has crossover appeal (as least between documenting power users across OSes). FYI, the OpenBSD crowd seem to have the lead in the Gemini space - but this is presumable for the protocol rather than the markdown.
Since then I stopped annotating in Orgmode and will be building workflows to (eventually?) approximate a lot of Orgmode functionality. Obviously Orgmode is awesome but I wonder if it is too designed around individual workflows and procedures - where greater payoff comes from pooled workflows and procedures.
I had success/pleaseure converting from .gem to .org formats with this experimentation (concerning annotations for a Guix CWL blog post)
=> https://git.sr.ht/~indieterminacy/q1q20hqh_kq_oq_parsing_gem_zsh/tree
From the tree you can see that it is feasible to output to *tex* or *html* formats, using simple REGEX foo.
Additionally there is an unfinished attempt at exporting to (sic) Skribilo.
(You may want to ignore the potentially impenitrable annotations, which concerns a 'Recursive Modelling Language' Ive been working on - it would certainly confuse this topic)
I would be happy if Guix writing was done with minimal Gem markup but with heavy Lisp usage for interpretation, synthesis, collection and publishing of content. I had originally taken the approach that there should be Tex heavy markup first and then simplified transposing into other formats later. Now Im on the other end of the horseshoe.
I miss experimenting with regards to Tikz as a mechanism for generating graphics. I understand why other tools are used and ho programmers tend to seemingly think in terms of characters. It bothers me that I do not have beautiful graph displays representing my environment - to consider things from an impressionistic viewpoint and a contrast to text-editor/browser dualism. I suspect it isnt insurmountable and could allow visually minded people to not feel aggrieved by TUIscapes.
> What do you mean by:
>
>> empathise regarding why networking engineers may prefer having a licence
>> which permits encapsulation more readily.
I mean: the MIT license allows you to operate in a commercial setting, whereby only the binaries are provided, without the requirement to provide the source content. While I normally am against this, an OpenBSD networking head has explained to me how there would be usecases where this would be useful - if only to provide the commercial breathing space for niche projects. I probably should stop paraphrasing this person now.
Jonathan McHugh
indieterminacy@libre.brussels
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread* Re: package manager guix on Windows and OSX
2021-06-25 17:07 ` Joshua Branson
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2021-06-25 23:18 ` indieterminacy
@ 2021-06-26 0:25 ` jbranso
2021-06-26 8:47 ` indieterminacy
2021-06-27 20:05 ` Edouard Klein
5 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: jbranso @ 2021-06-26 0:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: indieterminacy; +Cc: Edouard Klein, Patricio Martínez, help-guix
June 25, 2021 7:18 PM, indieterminacy@libre.brussels wrote:
> I love Latex, Context, I feel a bit weird for not having dabbled with Texinfo. Im not sure Texinfo
> is going to sway enough younger programmers (Im neither young nor old), I fear too many have been
> malconditioned into accepting delible communication techniques - Texinfo may no longer cut it.
We all owe Ludo a big thanks for writing Skribilo.
> I would consider Org mode to probably be the most acceptable default, though in many respects
> Skribilo could be more of a purer expression of a complete Guix approach. Are the aforementioned
> all different ways of dissuading people from considering Guix or documenting for it?
My understanding is that GNU Guix is a GNU project. As such we abide by the GNU coding standards,
which means that our documentation standard is GNU Texinfo. It was suggested to Stallman a while
ago that we should make the documentation standard Org mode, but Stallman did not like to force
people to use Emacs to write GNU documentation. I would love to re-implement Org mode in GNU Guile,
but that would probably be several years worth of effort. :) Or perhaps not. I could just write
a reader in Skribilo!
> FYI, I have been wading into the Gemini protocol the last two months. Beyond its more noticable
> security and publishing advantages, I have been entranced by the terseness of its Gem .gmi
> (minimalist MarkDown) format. I consider it has crossover appeal (as least between documenting
> power users across OSes). FYI, the OpenBSD crowd seem to have the lead in the Gemini space - but
> this is presumable for the protocol rather than the markdown.
I tend to agree. Drew Devault likes it a lot. I'm hoping to set up my blog to be hosted via gemini
too.
> Since then I stopped annotating in Orgmode and will be building workflows to (eventually?)
> approximate a lot of Orgmode functionality. Obviously Orgmode is awesome but I wonder if it is too
> designed around individual workflows and procedures - where greater payoff comes from pooled
> workflows and procedures.
>
> I had success/pleaseure converting from .gem to .org formats with this experimentation (concerning
> annotations for a Guix CWL blog post)
> => https://git.sr.ht/~indieterminacy/q1q20hqh_kq_oq_parsing_gem_zsh/tree
>
> From the tree you can see that it is feasible to output to *tex* or *html* formats, using simple
> REGEX foo.
>
> Additionally there is an unfinished attempt at exporting to (sic) Skribilo.
>
> (You may want to ignore the potentially impenitrable annotations, which concerns a 'Recursive
> Modelling Language' Ive been working on - it would certainly confuse this topic)
That sounds fun! Chat to me off list if you care to explain it.
> I would be happy if Guix writing was done with minimal Gem markup but with heavy Lisp usage for
> interpretation, synthesis, collection and publishing of content. I had originally taken the
> approach that there should be Tex heavy markup first and then simplified transposing into other
> formats later. Now Im on the other end of the horseshoe.
>
> I miss experimenting with regards to Tikz as a mechanism for generating graphics. I understand why
> other tools are used and ho programmers tend to seemingly think in terms of characters. It bothers
> me that I do not have beautiful graph displays representing my environment - to consider things
> from an impressionistic viewpoint and a contrast to text-editor/browser dualism. I suspect it isnt
> insurmountable and could allow visually minded people to not feel aggrieved by TUIscapes.
>
>> What do you mean by:
>>
>>> empathise regarding why networking engineers may prefer having a licence
>>> which permits encapsulation more readily.
>
> I mean: the MIT license allows you to operate in a commercial setting, whereby only the binaries
> are provided, without the requirement to provide the source content. While I normally am against
> this, an OpenBSD networking head has explained to me how there would be usecases where this would
> be useful - if only to provide the commercial breathing space for niche projects. I probably should
> stop paraphrasing this person now.
I suppose that's fair.
> Jonathan McHugh
> indieterminacy@libre.brussels
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread* Re: package manager guix on Windows and OSX
2021-06-25 17:07 ` Joshua Branson
` (3 preceding siblings ...)
2021-06-26 0:25 ` jbranso
@ 2021-06-26 8:47 ` indieterminacy
2021-06-27 20:05 ` Edouard Klein
5 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: indieterminacy @ 2021-06-26 8:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: jbranso; +Cc: Edouard Klein, help-guix
Wait, I found a bawdy joke which (hopefully) doesnt offend or wrankle:
Rather than them being onanists, perhaps it would be better to (within irreverent parameters) reframe OpenBSD developers as people who has a shower preceeding and after intercourse.
It serves as good hygene, its considerate to others but the extra efforts and procedures are incomprehensible to those who dont give a ****
June 25, 2021 10:56 PM, jbranso@dismail.de wrote:
>
> That and their software is top notch! Linus called their developers
> "masturbating monkeys", because of their obsessive pursuit of security!
> hahaha. At every shutdown, the OpenBSD kernel is re-linked. It's the same
> kernel when you reboot it, but the binary is re-ordered. That's amazing!
Phew, for a minute I was worried that I was going to have to apologise to the MIT community....
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread* Re: package manager guix on Windows and OSX
2021-06-25 17:07 ` Joshua Branson
` (4 preceding siblings ...)
2021-06-26 8:47 ` indieterminacy
@ 2021-06-27 20:05 ` Edouard Klein
5 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Edouard Klein @ 2021-06-27 20:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Joshua Branson; +Cc: help-guix
>
> Why Plan 9? May I ask?
Plan 9 is awesome. What the whole industry is barely managing to achieve
with containers and VMs, Guix does somewhat correctly with namespaces,
but Plan 9 had all this in its DNA, in a cleaner implementation 30
years ago !
By default, a process in Plan 9 only has a partial view of the system,
and is truly isolated from the other processes. No network, user,
filesytem namespace bullshit, everything (yes everything is a file), so
there is only one namespace, the filesystem namespace, and you mount
only what your process needs to see.
e.g . your process does not need to access the internet, then don't mount
/net !
e.t. your process need to access only one host: the connect to the host,
and mount the relevant /net/tcp/n/ directory, but not /net/tcp/clone,
and so your process will not be able to connect anywhere else !
Also, any file could be managed by a process running on another machine,
transparently.
Anyway, Guix reminds me of Plan9 because it achieves like 10% of what
Plan9 could do, but on a Kernel that actually runs on modern hardware,
and with a sane API, and so it's 10 times better than anything else. Yet
I wish Linux was more plan9ish.
> And I do really like the Hurd, but I use the
> dvorak keyboard layout. My understanding is that the Hurd does not
> support variant keyboard layouts yet... :(
I don't think that the kernel is the part where your keyboard layout is
implemented, but I don't know the Hurd at all so I may well
>
> I actually think that the Guix developers may want to consider a port to
> the OpenBSD kernel, provided that the Hyperbola developers get
> HyperbolaBSD working. Though I guess the Debian guys sort of did
> already. :)
OpenBSD is really good too. The pledge() function is a really nice API
that is much easier to use than the mess we got on Linux...
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread