From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp1 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id H42CNg4WsmA4ZQAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 29 May 2021 12:23:10 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp1 with LMTPS id uAA+MQ4WsmDuBwAAbx9fmQ (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 29 May 2021 10:23:10 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7FB2A188F7 for ; Sat, 29 May 2021 12:23:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:41802 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lmw7Z-00008y-5r for larch@yhetil.org; Sat, 29 May 2021 06:23:09 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:43658) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lmw7S-00008q-Cx for guix-patches@gnu.org; Sat, 29 May 2021 06:23:02 -0400 Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:44505) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lmw7S-0007l3-5j for guix-patches@gnu.org; Sat, 29 May 2021 06:23:02 -0400 Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lmw7S-0003RQ-2e for guix-patches@gnu.org; Sat, 29 May 2021 06:23:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: [bug#48696] [PATCH 2/3] doc: Add "Addressing Mistakes" section. Resent-From: Ludovic =?UTF-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: guix-patches@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 29 May 2021 10:23:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 48696 X-GNU-PR-Package: guix-patches X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Christopher Baines Cc: 48696@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 48696-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B48696.162228373813147 (code B ref 48696); Sat, 29 May 2021 10:23:02 +0000 Received: (at 48696) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 May 2021 10:22:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56047 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lmw6j-0003Py-LG for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 29 May 2021 06:22:17 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:49846) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lmw6h-0003Pl-JM for 48696@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 29 May 2021 06:22:16 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:40020) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lmw6a-0007Cy-5u; Sat, 29 May 2021 06:22:09 -0400 Received: from [2a01:e0a:1d:7270:af76:b9b:ca24:c465] (port=40196 helo=ribbon) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lmw6Z-0006Qj-IP; Sat, 29 May 2021 06:22:08 -0400 From: Ludovic =?UTF-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= References: <20210527123554.4267-1-ludo@gnu.org> <20210527123554.4267-2-ludo@gnu.org> <87y2c0f0i4.fsf@cbaines.net> X-URL: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ X-Revolutionary-Date: 10 Prairial an 229 de la =?UTF-8?Q?R=C3=A9volution?= X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x090B11993D9AEBB5 X-PGP-Key: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ludovic.asc X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3CE4 6455 8A84 FDC6 9DB4 0CFB 090B 1199 3D9A EBB5 X-OS: x86_64-pc-linux-gnu Date: Sat, 29 May 2021 12:22:06 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87y2c0f0i4.fsf@cbaines.net> (Christopher Baines's message of "Thu, 27 May 2021 20:19:15 +0100") Message-ID: <87eedpet69.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: guix-patches@gnu.org List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-patches-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-patches" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1622283790; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding:resent-cc: resent-from:resent-sender:resent-message-id:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post; bh=vziqHCs1vImadg7/v1acbEKh4A0ylqkQEO0RNPKO/qg=; b=EPv+3zQaI/FAu46Hi3H9/Cp8VdmjgM9ldR5sLDGtV2aI55qgiJNRpqZ1VEqVU2cnt74XmU TfuaRkmETBhwtrZ/adLlq1hpfSNIPZlzdqnA911N9oOye3/KcO2JbjphoKRe7aRSn3SVfn V5dVSK++QeKHXWbx2Q2zbUTql0U+aLgJZ5FMNGamoRbNlVKkjBPEOLhFH2qLSGYT/y0e7t NZpla7XHWIHHutxmFbbJ6heIpf+fH4Dp+7GH/O0zlxJ6/y5S3CopWdi1LhX+SjVCLuTsoU jtcIe1nDWqWmrjTTrbqW+ks6eK/cgeu4oS3CUJqs8HV180Yi7kUjx5uj5ZFL+w== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1622283790; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=oUhSc5Yg6jC+ZQEe+YpK8PknDUJFY9SR1ymuIcodWcYtW5JPZRQa8vBYmvlt7aysYP846Q 4KXB+wfi2zeXvmksX2yBa6plR1oGeVkJwkrPeQo4uZTvas/ZpOTahK5pqCc1IST44txR55 EkDiRhFmHh9H1LnFo6CVDq0sfq8CmcKdyCAXgZhK6Vk5FJhpYQfyyrxpbqtrwdtYHUI2lK FZutc3QSiscINjjFGXMfhBkCF2eXCCflCw7iiwsHzWLWmw8hZzHOkgtApE+yS1eCAw7Td6 1D9VP8tMxqHqn4mczc7BBGPiDggcTseFuNPZd+vtcm+W2EqYPWt/1d/f99Gnag== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-patches-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-patches-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -1.42 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-patches-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-patches-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 7FB2A188F7 X-Spam-Score: -1.42 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: uBC7bo7QKYPQ Hi Chris, Christopher Baines skribis: > Ludovic Court=C3=A8s writes: [...] >> +The Guix project values friendly cooperation and a constant effort to >> +focus on the way forward when issues arise. Committers should lead by >> +example, notably as a way to encourage contributors and contributors to >> +be. Blame as well as defensiveness do not have their place in Guix when >> +addressing genuine mistakes. > > I too would like to see less blame, but one factor is how things are > framed and the language used. Point taken! > On the language here, "mistake" is a word I would generally avoid if the > aim is avoid blaming someone, since mistakes are made by a person or set > of people. I'd prefer a term like "problem", since I don't perceieve > that as directly linked to a person or set of people. > > On the bit about the "person who pushed the faulty commits" (so, person > to blame...) I'd much prefer an emphisis on group responsibility to > mitigate the impact of problems quickly, and understand the factors that > led to that problems in the first place. That avoids assigning blame, > rather than the process pushing responsibility to the person to blame > ("person who pushed the faulty commit(s)"). I get what you say and very much like the idea of focusing on group responsibility. There=E2=80=99s blame, and there=E2=80=99s accountability. I see group res= ponsibility in setting up processes and carrying out proper peer review to avoid problems. I see accountability when it comes to commits actually pushed=E2=80=94in the end, it=E2=80=99s one person running =E2=80=98git pus= h=E2=80=99. In my view, =E2=80=9Cmistake=E2=80=9D can be a way to name a =E2=80=9Cproblem=E2=80=9D = that someone created and is accountable for (Jelle wrote a nice message on this topic a while back). This is getting a bit philosophical though, and I=E2=80=99m not sure my understanding of English is good enough to go any further. :-) I think you have a point though. Could you propose different wording for this section? (My goal for this section was to (1) spell out circumstances that may lead to reverts, (2) explain the implications of committer accountability, and (3) define our community standards in terms of focusing on addressing issues and not on blaming individuals.) > On this same thread, I'd like to see less blaming in the form of asking > people to "explain". When there's a problem, and you ask someone to > explain, I would interpret that as "I'm blaming you for this, please > give your account of how the mistake was made", to which the person can > either answer explaining the details as to why they are to blame, or can > disagree with the implicit assertion that they are to blame. To avoid > assigning blame, one can just ask someone to "describe" what happened, > which I wouldn't interpret as being loaded with the same implicit > assertion. I agree with what you write in general, though my understanding is that you=E2=80=99re not referring to the text in this patch, right? Thanks for your feedback, Ludo=E2=80=99.