From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp11.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id GMqbGLAHoWJxLgEAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 22:33:52 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp11.migadu.com with LMTPS id YKCgGLAHoWK1HwEA9RJhRA (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 22:33:52 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 015001AB7 for ; Wed, 8 Jun 2022 22:33:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:58178 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nz2ND-000507-5X for larch@yhetil.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 16:33:51 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:49652) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nz2Mo-0004zw-TZ for guix-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 16:33:26 -0400 Received: from cascadia.aikidev.net ([173.255.214.101]:45372) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nz2Mm-0007r7-IZ for guix-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 16:33:26 -0400 Received: from localhost (unknown [IPv6:2600:3c01:e000:21:7:77:0:20]) (Authenticated sender: vagrant@aikidev.net) by cascadia.aikidev.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1B6AA1AB5A; Wed, 8 Jun 2022 13:33:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=reproducible-builds.org; s=1.vagrant; t=1654720403; bh=B8pzHufWqWyxup6q80J1wUxjeWd7ZaJx1ab5fLFGVyk=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=EZCrizYdMm2gh5mef5jJhqBqxaZ/JSCQ12EtoUEwCGGv4gDcgSm72tvOciRV9n0zH SCFSP7GSgUEp4C1Q8pI3Jamw7d0TLQeEdrUQMt+YQ0FD6YHTc4HV+4H+qifTPr6Na6 8ZW5dgeS2QS4BBWG7i/BpUE1cEZZRGcDF8bDJ1ZTl7SwenCVwPPduNUjw1XQM0Tgbb WVbXmcihM6Feub/4OMJ8+Ml33sJ23EJd3EBISu2R9aiRsgSnY4I+zIcYpgijYlbI5f c1/pvCfdDx9U3TRTO0FVTzqPW+nbVQALAc3Kr4tRBdCl7QjDE+69idw/bhBHQFMsA5 7nJw9f2OjUquw== From: Vagrant Cascadian To: Efraim Flashner , Julien Lepiller Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org, Felix Lechner Subject: Re: maradns reproducibility fixes and the merits of picking a random number In-Reply-To: References: <87pmjlfdjl.fsf@contorta> <310AD876-916E-4020-A87E-5609E8166432@lepiller.eu> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2022 13:33:18 -0700 Message-ID: <87a6amgak1.fsf@contorta> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Received-SPF: none client-ip=173.255.214.101; envelope-from=vagrant@reproducible-builds.org; helo=cascadia.aikidev.net X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1654720432; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=umEi1VaW2DLH3AGScTSI9YxYVoJ3930YH1g0oNDAbd4=; b=dr6Xo9bczRdniTlsJbqWnSAeiEYisBMFuGTsIk6cDYsX9pHkNbc4tGGdObV7tVwQN7bOpd eSqkt/TTTt0jkpIwz2tpruLg3h4snOdTHuDzZkf+wKW2+w0+vMoYfYxYlSulIkpeAyo6Jv cd7Hkc24GeCRT+6INgYZmnLj+/Pf2tfsMEiWBai3quILWt1Wpu+zLLjOw6q8kKmdChwbwW 0qPqCBXFzVZLEj9zxhXBeU6XInPPLwgcwNRjaqiqKAJNr3ilmAU26J3KPr7aBJRUMqL9e3 xJl8VJs87KuvOt7Hu+Wu3PHEjXlr9spsyErl+lcqZyTYj3exAD8K8N9UNJZ0Ag== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1654720432; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=JdQSi3VimW24hkSZgyJpfJulK8OQRkun3AviJE/T1ORXoqw3HLTrWq6z4eqNgl642bXgil ZhmH6vSVUZS5yKJjbJ7sCQYMOBRV3wyguPPO2uZg/bpyuNv5OodcWZu4XQLk0Ven+m4zgB LCRpvdU8tifIDAwyCtl7PeVd3hI6/P/rFV5ojItH+3+c83VGozrpjhDNmM0ido+bz9vaYz EiwpJ98JxDIDRFyE4orvK5Uxmb5Woy414d1fCM2RuXxx6B3UlQBKgcdkpQkPICxpJO5L+M /4R/PagmKjRrSHDVlKomi9EDAj95pa4dukNHoq5kmg0zqOO02QEZPwmQjt13qA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=reproducible-builds.org header.s=1.vagrant header.b=EZCrizYd; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -8.60 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=reproducible-builds.org header.s=1.vagrant header.b=EZCrizYd; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 015001AB7 X-Spam-Score: -8.60 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: KOREuQ+ECUZ0 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2022-06-08, Efraim Flashner wrote: > On Tue, Jun 07, 2022 at 07:20:25AM +0200, Julien Lepiller wrote: >> On June 7, 2022 5:24:22 AM GMT+02:00, Felix Lechner wrote: >> >On Mon, Jun 6, 2022 at 6:50 PM Vagrant Cascadian >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> So, Debian's maradns package just removes this embedding of a "random" >> >> number, and I've basically adapted their patches to build reproducibly >> >> on guix too... by basically embedding the same "random" number every >> >> single build! > > I have to say I was shocked to not see 4 as the random number=C2=B9. ... > =C2=B9 https://xkcd.com/221/ In an alternate reality, I did consider 4 for the reasons you alluded to, but ruled it out because it was not a random prime number. :) >> >There may be more than one opinion, but as the maintainer of a TLS >> >library in Debian I think it is a questionable tradeoff. At a minimum, >> >it would be preferable to use the version number instead of a fixed >> >constant for all releases. >>=20 >> Consider that even without the patch, each distro will build maradns onc= e and distribute the package to their user. Every user gets the same binary= with the same "random" number. So even if it's chosen at build time, it wo= n't really help. >>=20 >> In our case, it only means users who don't use substitutes get a random = number, others get the same number that the build farm picked at random. Fi= xing a number doesn't sound like it's gonna change a lot for these users. > > This is something we can work with. We can just mark the package as > '#:substitutable? #f' and then everyone will have to build it > themselves. It still won't really be reproducible, but everyone will > actually have their own special random number. This actually seems like the best approach in the short term! Leaving time to work out a better fix long-term, probably by working with upstream... Thoughts? >> >MaraDNS does not support DNSSEC so the program may not use entropy for >> >keys. Either way, I'd rather use an unreproducible build than, >> >accidentally, a known number series to encrypt secrets. Can one patch >> >out the constant entirely so it is no longer available? >> > >> >The upstream website says: "People like MaraDNS because it=E2=80=99s ... >> >remarkably secure." [1] Since many distributions have the same issue, >> >upstream could perhaps offer the patch as a build switch to enable a >> >build-time seed only when needed. >>=20 >> Sounds like the safest option. Maybe we could change the code that uses = that number to naise an exception or abort? Yeah, seems worth taking this or similar ideas upstream... live well, vagrant --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEARYKAB0WIQRlgHNhO/zFx+LkXUXcUY/If5cWqgUCYqEHjwAKCRDcUY/If5cW qhHFAQCAEcVKxWy5y5q96KTg2LTAflzWcOKx0fCfUgO0KWVTHAEAut8+f9HH4Fmg YE87/PohmdyPtvcs03ykfc+9gVuc8A8= =itVi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--