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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1681492109; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=iCZc22PK15P0Df6lSZknQLPnHGhHIeKGn8q9p3MCuzth1NPI/Yg9bKbyu5h4hjgRxid5HC k4GhR13f5WTTYV+Xvujk/JBqWlD6jsrvXSUAruulzdlerOt/qUsw3un/2z33fsUn+epGsY Vrka7CXTYMeE7dRkZKJ8INCP77t9Oa2Q3RBL/Xby9V3y3Y9g84PPU+AvJq6nkVjpbwzAk7 k+W5WZBHBTlvvP3r5cL6CIh9E0oKhIR4TyoC9gqsF6w6C0ezLo4GMarfHofBWHkfk9gflI cBWsxO8mbBkkV1l7E0tNFrOSn7neqaldJczsonjWJhq5ZzcWfUkFIhmaKlSyXg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20221208 header.b=U3iXsebE; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1681492109; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=6j9hEedLG8a/Ustrg4GxpoLcNBPskkveT2TN2GZgMbA=; b=tssgqs1q//qdCUd436kR06q3OCf1pJw5ktWwEqooreSG1m0yc+0CKAcO72PWg2t9zOXDXW tCwg9p13ufhzY+nJOMaTkHV+rP3vvZp2JqVzVNvBdM9wL6QCWHBwVR74sUoZ0Hju158fRj XP1XqPOCGCTM+SrFLdcAN8wV+FuW5HL+/Kq1H2BNY5/MaUa73mtLJTM5g1c9pibFivR/jJ uPPeQuCDD0/aTJR2v8X7V4EHtJzi5OTlwmx0pcBTaPqTNWYw6HfrU0dr3DzX9RRu88Ou4W uwRVZW4vuddzWL3PLpdYshJiFa8tyxxWgtFeNZHMmnop6fX4HjVTtzb8t8EUiw== X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -6.45 X-Spam-Score: -6.45 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: E43BA2B5B4 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20221208 header.b=U3iXsebE; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com X-TUID: jjIlavlCS2CW Hi, On ven., 14 avril 2023 at 17:12, Csepp wrote: > That is a pretty terrible direction to take. There are still plenty of > people who rely on old hardware who can't afford to buy new machines. > When discussing these issues, it is important to keep in mind that the > people who have enough spare time to contribute to this project and hang > out on the mailing lists come from a rather privileged background. What > you think is reasonable to categorize as obsolete might be the only > machine a poor family could afford on the second hand market. > If Linux distros keep dropping support for old hardware, then they are > not liberatory, no matter how "free" their licenses are. > > We are also in the middle of a massive climate crisis, so we should aim > to prolong the usefulness of existing hardware and not give in to this > planned obsolescence BS. At some point we have to make choices or trade-off. Because we have two incompatible directions. The maintenance is very hard: on one hand, the rate of updates is very high and on the other hand the person-power for doing the job is low. Somehow, it=E2=80=99s not new. Mark already pointed the issue with non-x86= _64 architectures, for instance, quoting [1]: In my experience, Guix is already moving far too fast to be usable = on less popular architectures. I have some knowledge of this. Years = ago, I made a serious effort to make Guix usable on non-Intel systems. = When Guix was young, I initiated its first two ports to non-Intel architectures: mips64el-linux and armhf-linux, and I tried to actua= lly use Guix on those systems in practice. I found that my system was = very frequently broken by upstream updates, and that we didn't have near= ly enough developer energy to keep up with fixing those problems. I've come to believe that having Guix work well on non-Intel system= s is, in practice, incompatible with the rate at which we update our pack= ages. I'm not sure that even Debian would have enough energy to keep less popular architecures working well, given our practices. I raised t= his issue on guix-devel a few times over the years, but it became clear= that the desire in this community to keep packages aggressively updated = far outweighs any interest in supporting non-Intel systems. Ultimately, I gave up. In my opinion, Guix has never achieved usab= ility as a desktop system on non-Intel systems. Therefore, the Guix comm= unity is unable to attract many developers who want a distro that supports non-Intel systems well. Our community has thus become dominated by Intel users, and there's unsufficient political will to adopt polic= ies that would enable us to provide a usable system for non-Intel users. 1: https://yhetil.org/guix/87v99qit39.fsf@netris.org Re: [opinion] CVE-patching is not sufficient for package security p= atching Tue, 16 Mar 2021 19:19:59 -0400 id:87v99qit39.fsf@netris.org My opinion, FWIW, is to move less fast, as explained in [2]. Otherwise it appears to me impossible to have both very up-to-date packages and running on various architectures. 2: https://yhetil.org/guix/86mtv29erk.fsf@gmail.com Cheers, simon PS: =E2=80=9CWe are in the middle of a massive climate crisis=E2=80=9D impl= ies an end; sadly it will not be the case: we are at the beginning of a massive climate change.