NetworkManager instead of Wicd in ‘%desktop-services’?

NetworkManager instead of Wicd in ‘%desktop-services’?

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hello Guix!

Shouldn’t we replace Wicd with NetworkManager in ‘%desktop-services’?

I’ve given it a try on a GuixSD GNOME installation and it appears to
work well, and it’s obviously well-integrated with GNOME, whereas Wicd
is a bit hidden (one has to know what to look for) and “foreign.”

Thoughts?

Now, as someone who doesn’t use GNOME, I wonder if NM would work well
for me.  Last time I tried it’s CLI was too low-level to be usable, and
I don’t remember seeing a curses interface.  Suggestions?

Thanks,
Ludo’.

Re: NetworkManager instead of Wicd in ‘%desktop-services’?

[ng0]

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Ludovic Courtès transcribed 0.6K bytes:
> Hello Guix!
> 
> Shouldn’t we replace Wicd with NetworkManager in ‘%desktop-services’?
> 
> I’ve given it a try on a GuixSD GNOME installation and it appears to
> work well, and it’s obviously well-integrated with GNOME, whereas Wicd
> is a bit hidden (one has to know what to look for) and “foreign.”
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Now, as someone who doesn’t use GNOME, I wonder if NM would work well
> for me.  Last time I tried it’s CLI was too low-level to be usable, and
> I don’t remember seeing a curses interface.  Suggestions?
> 
> Thanks,
> Ludo’.

When I used it with GNOME it was okay.

But as I personally don't really use GNOME and fancy
integration doesn't help me: Don't we have nm-curses? or is
that a separate package?
-- 
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Re: NetworkManager instead of Wicd in ‘%desktop-services’?

[Jan Nieuwenhuizen]

Ludovic Courtès writes:

> Now, as someone who doesn’t use GNOME, I wonder if NM would work well
> for me.  Last time I tried it’s CLI was too low-level to be usable, and
> I don’t remember seeing a curses interface.  Suggestions?

I would welcome some improvement here, or insight on my part.  Since I
moved away from desktop environments, wicd has not not worked for me and
I have been using ifconfig, wpa_supplicant and dhclient manually.  That
has removed my dependency on something like NM and it's apparent
inherent magic...but it's rather painful.

Seems like I don't have a concrete suggestion here, just a feeble wish
to have networking as simple and crisply declaritively configurable as
the rest of GuixSD.

janneke

-- 
Jan Nieuwenhuizen <janneke@gnu.org> | GNU LilyPond http://lilypond.org
Freelance IT http://JoyofSource.com | Avatar® http://AvatarAcademy.com

Re: NetworkManager instead of Wicd in ???%desktop-services????

[Pjotr Prins]

On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 05:18:59PM +0200, Jan Nieuwenhuizen wrote:
> Ludovic Court??s writes:
> 
> > Now, as someone who doesn???t use GNOME, I wonder if NM would work well
> > for me.  Last time I tried it???s CLI was too low-level to be usable, and
> > I don???t remember seeing a curses interface.  Suggestions?
> 
> I would welcome some improvement here, or insight on my part.  Since I
> moved away from desktop environments, wicd has not not worked for me and
> I have been using ifconfig, wpa_supplicant and dhclient manually.  That
> has removed my dependency on something like NM and it's apparent
> inherent magic...but it's rather painful.

I actually prefer doing it this way. wpa_supplicant with multiple
config files is the way when you travel a lot. No confusion between
phone tethering, eduroam and multiple wifi networks. Until these NM
tools start offering profiles... And general connecting is faster too.

Pj.

Re: NetworkManager instead of Wicd in ???%desktop-services????

[ng0]

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Pjotr Prins transcribed 0.9K bytes:
> On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 05:18:59PM +0200, Jan Nieuwenhuizen wrote:
> > Ludovic Court??s writes:
> > 
> > > Now, as someone who doesn???t use GNOME, I wonder if NM would work well
> > > for me.  Last time I tried it???s CLI was too low-level to be usable, and
> > > I don???t remember seeing a curses interface.  Suggestions?
> > 
> > I would welcome some improvement here, or insight on my part.  Since I
> > moved away from desktop environments, wicd has not not worked for me and
> > I have been using ifconfig, wpa_supplicant and dhclient manually.  That
> > has removed my dependency on something like NM and it's apparent
> > inherent magic...but it's rather painful.
> 
> I actually prefer doing it this way. wpa_supplicant with multiple
> config files is the way when you travel a lot. No confusion between
> phone tethering, eduroam and multiple wifi networks. Until these NM
> tools start offering profiles... And general connecting is faster too.
> 
> Pj.

But we're discussing desktop-environments here, not minimal stripped
down WMs and their use cases.
Do you suggest we tell people to just use the CLI or "add one of the
following choices of network connectivity tools and their services"?
That won't work out very well in practice.
-- 
ng0
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Re: NetworkManager instead of Wicd in ???%desktop-services????

[Pjotr Prins]

On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 06:52:55PM +0000, ng0 wrote:
> But we're discussing desktop-environments here, not minimal stripped
> down WMs and their use cases.
> Do you suggest we tell people to just use the CLI or "add one of the
> following choices of network connectivity tools and their services"?
> That won't work out very well in practice.

Sure.

Re: NetworkManager instead of Wicd in ‘%desktop-services’?

[Ludovic Courtès]

Jan Nieuwenhuizen <janneke@gnu.org> skribis:

> I would welcome some improvement here, or insight on my part.  Since I
> moved away from desktop environments, wicd has not not worked for me and
> I have been using ifconfig, wpa_supplicant and dhclient manually.  That
> has removed my dependency on something like NM and it's apparent
> inherent magic...but it's rather painful.

FWIW I use Wicd with ‘wicd-cli’ (GTK+).  It works OK, but Wicd is not
very smart when it comes to reconnecting, detecting new networks, etc.

Ludo’.

Re: NetworkManager instead of Wicd in ‘%desktop-services’?

[Mark H Weaver]

ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes:

> Shouldn’t we replace Wicd with NetworkManager in ‘%desktop-services’?
>
> I’ve given it a try on a GuixSD GNOME installation and it appears to
> work well, and it’s obviously well-integrated with GNOME, whereas Wicd
> is a bit hidden (one has to know what to look for) and “foreign.”
>
> Thoughts?

I've been using Network Manager with GNOME for several months at least,
and generally I find it works very well, and reconnects much more
quickly than wicd.

However, there is one annoying bug: every time I reboot the system, the
first 1-3 times it connects to the network, name lookups do not work.  I
always have to manually ask Network Manager to disconnect, and then
reconnect.  Sometimes I have to do this two or three times before name
lookups work.  After I've done this, it works perfectly until the next
reboot.

I looked into this a bit, but haven't yet found the cause.  When name
lookups are failing, /etc/resolv.conf exists and is correctly
configured.  I've tried restarting 'nscd', but it doesn't help.

One caveat: for some time now I've only tested Network Manager with
wired networks.  I've recently been unable to use wireless, because I
had to replace the motherboard in my Thinkpad X200, and haven't yet
gotten around to getting the clip I need to reflash Libreboot.  The
proprietary BIOS refuses to boot with the Atheros wireless card
installed, so I had to remove the card for now.

> Now, as someone who doesn’t use GNOME, I wonder if NM would work well
> for me.  Last time I tried it’s CLI was too low-level to be usable, and
> I don’t remember seeing a curses interface.  Suggestions?

There is a curses interface included with Network Manager.  It's called
'nmtui'.  It's not getting built because it depends on 'newt', which is
not an input to our Network Manager package.

      Mark

Re: NetworkManager instead of Wicd in ‘%desktop-services’?

[Ludovic Courtès]

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Hi Mark,

Mark H Weaver <mhw@netris.org> skribis:

> I've been using Network Manager with GNOME for several months at least,
> and generally I find it works very well, and reconnects much more
> quickly than wicd.

Good.

> However, there is one annoying bug: every time I reboot the system, the
> first 1-3 times it connects to the network, name lookups do not work.  I
> always have to manually ask Network Manager to disconnect, and then
> reconnect.  Sometimes I have to do this two or three times before name
> lookups work.  After I've done this, it works perfectly until the next
> reboot.
>
> I looked into this a bit, but haven't yet found the cause.  When name
> lookups are failing, /etc/resolv.conf exists and is correctly
> configured.  I've tried restarting 'nscd', but it doesn't help.

Weird.  (I’ve installed GuixSD/GNOME/NM on a laptop that’s almost always
on a wired network and it doesn’t have this problem AFAIK.)

Could you enable nscd debugging output, so we can at least see whether
the problem is due to nscd caching name lookup failures?  Something
like:

       (modify-services %desktop-services
         (nscd-service-type config
                            => (nscd-configuration
                                (inherit config)
                                (debug-level 3)
                                (log-file "/var/log/nscd.log"))))

>> Now, as someone who doesn’t use GNOME, I wonder if NM would work well
>> for me.  Last time I tried it’s CLI was too low-level to be usable, and
>> I don’t remember seeing a curses interface.  Suggestions?
>
> There is a curses interface included with Network Manager.  It's called
> 'nmtui'.  It's not getting built because it depends on 'newt', which is
> not an input to our Network Manager package.

Nice.  The attached patch adds this dependency, changing the closure
size from 356 MiB to 360, which I think is reasonable:


[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/x-patch, Size: 717 bytes --]

diff --git a/gnu/packages/gnome.scm b/gnu/packages/gnome.scm
index 931c50e9d..d9d3fe793 100644
--- a/gnu/packages/gnome.scm
+++ b/gnu/packages/gnome.scm
@@ -109,6 +109,7 @@
   #:use-module (gnu packages rdesktop)
   #:use-module (gnu packages scanner)
   #:use-module (gnu packages selinux)
+  #:use-module (gnu packages slang)
   #:use-module (gnu packages ssh)
   #:use-module (gnu packages xml)
   #:use-module (gnu packages gl)
@@ -4967,6 +4968,7 @@ users.")
        ("libnl" ,libnl)
        ("libsoup" ,libsoup)
        ("modem-manager" ,modem-manager)
+       ("newt" ,newt)                       ;for the 'nmtui' console interface
        ("polkit" ,polkit)
        ("ppp" ,ppp)
        ("readline" ,readline)

[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 37 bytes --]


OK to apply?

Thanks,
Ludo’.

Re: NetworkManager instead of Wicd in ‘%desktop-services’?

[Mark H Weaver]

ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes:

> Mark H Weaver <mhw@netris.org> skribis:
>
>> I've been using Network Manager with GNOME for several months at least,
>> and generally I find it works very well, and reconnects much more
>> quickly than wicd.
>
> Good.
>
>> However, there is one annoying bug: every time I reboot the system, the
>> first 1-3 times it connects to the network, name lookups do not work.  I
>> always have to manually ask Network Manager to disconnect, and then
>> reconnect.  Sometimes I have to do this two or three times before name
>> lookups work.  After I've done this, it works perfectly until the next
>> reboot.
>>
>> I looked into this a bit, but haven't yet found the cause.  When name
>> lookups are failing, /etc/resolv.conf exists and is correctly
>> configured.  I've tried restarting 'nscd', but it doesn't help.
>
> Weird.  (I’ve installed GuixSD/GNOME/NM on a laptop that’s almost always
> on a wired network and it doesn’t have this problem AFAIK.)
>
> Could you enable nscd debugging output, so we can at least see whether
> the problem is due to nscd caching name lookup failures?  Something
> like:
>
>        (modify-services %desktop-services
>          (nscd-service-type config
>                             => (nscd-configuration
>                                 (inherit config)
>                                 (debug-level 3)
>                                 (log-file "/var/log/nscd.log"))))

Okay, I'll try that soon.

>>> Now, as someone who doesn’t use GNOME, I wonder if NM would work well
>>> for me.  Last time I tried it’s CLI was too low-level to be usable, and
>>> I don’t remember seeing a curses interface.  Suggestions?
>>
>> There is a curses interface included with Network Manager.  It's called
>> 'nmtui'.  It's not getting built because it depends on 'newt', which is
>> not an input to our Network Manager package.
>
> Nice.  The attached patch adds this dependency, changing the closure
> size from 356 MiB to 360, which I think is reasonable:
>
> diff --git a/gnu/packages/gnome.scm b/gnu/packages/gnome.scm
> index 931c50e9d..d9d3fe793 100644
> --- a/gnu/packages/gnome.scm
> +++ b/gnu/packages/gnome.scm
> @@ -109,6 +109,7 @@
>    #:use-module (gnu packages rdesktop)
>    #:use-module (gnu packages scanner)
>    #:use-module (gnu packages selinux)
> +  #:use-module (gnu packages slang)
>    #:use-module (gnu packages ssh)
>    #:use-module (gnu packages xml)
>    #:use-module (gnu packages gl)
> @@ -4967,6 +4968,7 @@ users.")
>         ("libnl" ,libnl)
>         ("libsoup" ,libsoup)
>         ("modem-manager" ,modem-manager)
> +       ("newt" ,newt)                       ;for the 'nmtui' console interface
>         ("polkit" ,polkit)
>         ("ppp" ,ppp)
>         ("readline" ,readline)
>
>
> OK to apply?

Looks good to me!

     Thanks,
       Mark

Re: NetworkManager instead of Wicd in ‘%desktop-services’?

[Ludovic Courtès]

Mark H Weaver <mhw@netris.org> skribis:

> ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes:
>
>> Mark H Weaver <mhw@netris.org> skribis:
>>
>>> I've been using Network Manager with GNOME for several months at least,
>>> and generally I find it works very well, and reconnects much more
>>> quickly than wicd.
>>
>> Good.
>>
>>> However, there is one annoying bug: every time I reboot the system, the
>>> first 1-3 times it connects to the network, name lookups do not work.  I
>>> always have to manually ask Network Manager to disconnect, and then
>>> reconnect.  Sometimes I have to do this two or three times before name
>>> lookups work.  After I've done this, it works perfectly until the next
>>> reboot.
>>>
>>> I looked into this a bit, but haven't yet found the cause.  When name
>>> lookups are failing, /etc/resolv.conf exists and is correctly
>>> configured.  I've tried restarting 'nscd', but it doesn't help.
>>
>> Weird.  (I’ve installed GuixSD/GNOME/NM on a laptop that’s almost always
>> on a wired network and it doesn’t have this problem AFAIK.)
>>
>> Could you enable nscd debugging output, so we can at least see whether
>> the problem is due to nscd caching name lookup failures?  Something
>> like:
>>
>>        (modify-services %desktop-services
>>          (nscd-service-type config
>>                             => (nscd-configuration
>>                                 (inherit config)
>>                                 (debug-level 3)
>>                                 (log-file "/var/log/nscd.log"))))
>
> Okay, I'll try that soon.
>
>>>> Now, as someone who doesn’t use GNOME, I wonder if NM would work well
>>>> for me.  Last time I tried it’s CLI was too low-level to be usable, and
>>>> I don’t remember seeing a curses interface.  Suggestions?
>>>
>>> There is a curses interface included with Network Manager.  It's called
>>> 'nmtui'.  It's not getting built because it depends on 'newt', which is
>>> not an input to our Network Manager package.
>>
>> Nice.  The attached patch adds this dependency, changing the closure
>> size from 356 MiB to 360, which I think is reasonable:
>>
>> diff --git a/gnu/packages/gnome.scm b/gnu/packages/gnome.scm
>> index 931c50e9d..d9d3fe793 100644
>> --- a/gnu/packages/gnome.scm
>> +++ b/gnu/packages/gnome.scm
>> @@ -109,6 +109,7 @@
>>    #:use-module (gnu packages rdesktop)
>>    #:use-module (gnu packages scanner)
>>    #:use-module (gnu packages selinux)
>> +  #:use-module (gnu packages slang)
>>    #:use-module (gnu packages ssh)
>>    #:use-module (gnu packages xml)
>>    #:use-module (gnu packages gl)
>> @@ -4967,6 +4968,7 @@ users.")
>>         ("libnl" ,libnl)
>>         ("libsoup" ,libsoup)
>>         ("modem-manager" ,modem-manager)
>> +       ("newt" ,newt)                       ;for the 'nmtui' console interface
>>         ("polkit" ,polkit)
>>         ("ppp" ,ppp)
>>         ("readline" ,readline)
>>
>>
>> OK to apply?
>
> Looks good to me!

Pushed as c27e02bf6b249321c9e699e414f474ce072a6f14.

Ludo'.

Re: NetworkManager instead of Wicd in ‘%desktop-services’?

[Mark H Weaver]

ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes:

> Mark H Weaver <mhw@netris.org> skribis:
>
>> I've been using Network Manager with GNOME for several months at least,
>> and generally I find it works very well, and reconnects much more
>> quickly than wicd.
>
> Good.
>
>> However, there is one annoying bug: every time I reboot the system, the
>> first 1-3 times it connects to the network, name lookups do not work.  I
>> always have to manually ask Network Manager to disconnect, and then
>> reconnect.  Sometimes I have to do this two or three times before name
>> lookups work.  After I've done this, it works perfectly until the next
>> reboot.
>>
>> I looked into this a bit, but haven't yet found the cause.  When name
>> lookups are failing, /etc/resolv.conf exists and is correctly
>> configured.  I've tried restarting 'nscd', but it doesn't help.
>
> Weird.  (I’ve installed GuixSD/GNOME/NM on a laptop that’s almost always
> on a wired network and it doesn’t have this problem AFAIK.)
>
> Could you enable nscd debugging output, so we can at least see whether
> the problem is due to nscd caching name lookup failures?  Something
> like:
>
>        (modify-services %desktop-services
>          (nscd-service-type config
>                             => (nscd-configuration
>                                 (inherit config)
>                                 (debug-level 3)
>                                 (log-file "/var/log/nscd.log"))))

I've since migrated my x86_64 GuixSD system to building everything
locally, using a local branch that's almost the same as 'core-updates'
except with 'expat' and 'pcre' ungrafted.  Since then, I've been unable
to reproduce the problem I described above.

However, I've run into a different problem.  Several times, after
reconnecting to the network, I've found that IceCat is unable to access
the network (or possibly just DNS), even when the everything works from
the command line.  Restarting IceCat solves the problem.

It's possible that waiting long enough would also work, but so far I
haven't been patient enough to try it.

Possibly related: the glibc-2.26 release announcement mentions the
following new feature:

  * Improvements to the DNS stub resolver, contributed by Florian Weimer:

    - The GNU C Library will now detect when /etc/resolv.conf has been
      modified and reload the changed configuration.  The new resolver
      option “no-reload” (RES_NORELOAD) disables this behavior.

       Mark

Re: NetworkManager instead of Wicd in ‘%desktop-services’?

[Ludovic Courtès]

Mark H Weaver <mhw@netris.org> skribis:

> I've since migrated my x86_64 GuixSD system to building everything
> locally, using a local branch that's almost the same as 'core-updates'
> except with 'expat' and 'pcre' ungrafted.  Since then, I've been unable
> to reproduce the problem I described above.

OK.

> However, I've run into a different problem.  Several times, after
> reconnecting to the network, I've found that IceCat is unable to access
> the network (or possibly just DNS), even when the everything works from
> the command line.  Restarting IceCat solves the problem.
>
> It's possible that waiting long enough would also work, but so far I
> haven't been patient enough to try it.

IceCat is too high-level to debug.  I think we should look at
getaddrinfo(3) or getent(1).

> Possibly related: the glibc-2.26 release announcement mentions the
> following new feature:
>
>   * Improvements to the DNS stub resolver, contributed by Florian Weimer:
>
>     - The GNU C Library will now detect when /etc/resolv.conf has been
>       modified and reload the changed configuration.  The new resolver
>       option “no-reload” (RES_NORELOAD) disables this behavior.

I didn’t understand this part because nscd 2.25 already detected
resolv.conf changes via inotify, AFAIK.

Ludo’.

Re: NetworkManager instead of Wicd in ‘%desktop-services’?

[Maxim Cournoyer]

Hi,

Mark H Weaver <mhw@netris.org> writes:

> ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes:
>
>> Shouldn’t we replace Wicd with NetworkManager in ‘%desktop-services’?
>>
>> I’ve given it a try on a GuixSD GNOME installation and it appears to
>> work well, and it’s obviously well-integrated with GNOME, whereas Wicd
>> is a bit hidden (one has to know what to look for) and “foreign.”
>>
>> Thoughts?
>
> I've been using Network Manager with GNOME for several months at least,
> and generally I find it works very well, and reconnects much more
> quickly than wicd.

Another reason to let go of wicd is that it doesn't support IPv6. I
tried extending our dhcp-client-service some time ago but got stuck with
some peculiarities of dhclient.

> However, there is one annoying bug: every time I reboot the system, the
> first 1-3 times it connects to the network, name lookups do not work.  I
> always have to manually ask Network Manager to disconnect, and then
> reconnect.  Sometimes I have to do this two or three times before name
> lookups work.  After I've done this, it works perfectly until the next
> reboot.
>
> I looked into this a bit, but haven't yet found the cause.  When name
> lookups are failing, /etc/resolv.conf exists and is correctly
> configured.  I've tried restarting 'nscd', but it doesn't help.
>
> One caveat: for some time now I've only tested Network Manager with
> wired networks.  I've recently been unable to use wireless, because I
> had to replace the motherboard in my Thinkpad X200, and haven't yet
> gotten around to getting the clip I need to reflash Libreboot.  The
> proprietary BIOS refuses to boot with the Atheros wireless card
> installed, so I had to remove the card for now.

I've noticed the same (lack of DNS resolution) following a reboot for
some minutes and was also wondering what was causing this. I'm using
wicd as part of the %desktop-services, so that specific problem is
probably not related to NetworkManager.

Re: NetworkManager instead of Wicd in ‘%desktop-services’?

[Ludovic Courtès]

Maxim Cournoyer <maxim.cournoyer@gmail.com> skribis:

> I've noticed the same (lack of DNS resolution) following a reboot for
> some minutes and was also wondering what was causing this. I'm using
> wicd as part of the %desktop-services, so that specific problem is
> probably not related to NetworkManager.

Our default nscd config caches lookup failures for 20 seconds by default
(see ‘nscd-cache’ in the manual.)  So if you look up a host before
networking is up, and it fails, then there’s a window during which
lookup will keep failing.

I don’t know if that explains what you’re seeing.

Ludo’.

Re: NetworkManager instead of Wicd in ‘%desktop-services’?

[Mark H Weaver]

ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes:

> Maxim Cournoyer <maxim.cournoyer@gmail.com> skribis:
>
>> I've noticed the same (lack of DNS resolution) following a reboot for
>> some minutes and was also wondering what was causing this. I'm using
>> wicd as part of the %desktop-services, so that specific problem is
>> probably not related to NetworkManager.
>
> Our default nscd config caches lookup failures for 20 seconds by default
> (see ‘nscd-cache’ in the manual.)  So if you look up a host before
> networking is up, and it fails, then there’s a window during which
> lookup will keep failing.
>
> I don’t know if that explains what you’re seeing.

I don't know about Maxim, but waiting 20 seconds definitely doesn't
solve the problem for me.  I've sometimes waited quite a long time after
rebooting before doing something that requires network access, and then
realizing that DNS is not working and that I forgot to go through the
disconnect+reconnect+test loop until it starts working.

      Mark

Re: NetworkManager instead of Wicd in ‘%desktop-services’?

[Maxim Cournoyer]

ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes:

> Maxim Cournoyer <maxim.cournoyer@gmail.com> skribis:
>
>> I've noticed the same (lack of DNS resolution) following a reboot for
>> some minutes and was also wondering what was causing this. I'm using
>> wicd as part of the %desktop-services, so that specific problem is
>> probably not related to NetworkManager.
>
> Our default nscd config caches lookup failures for 20 seconds by default
> (see ‘nscd-cache’ in the manual.)  So if you look up a host before
> networking is up, and it fails, then there’s a window during which
> lookup will keep failing.
>
> I don’t know if that explains what you’re seeing.

It can take much longer than 20 s upon a reboot to have the name
resolution working again (more than 5 minutes), so that doesn't seem to
explain it by itself.

Re: NetworkManager instead of Wicd in ‘%desktop-services’?

[Adam Van Ymeren]

Maxim Cournoyer <maxim.cournoyer@gmail.com> writes:

> ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes:
>
>> Maxim Cournoyer <maxim.cournoyer@gmail.com> skribis:
>>
>>> I've noticed the same (lack of DNS resolution) following a reboot for
>>> some minutes and was also wondering what was causing this. I'm using
>>> wicd as part of the %desktop-services, so that specific problem is
>>> probably not related to NetworkManager.
>>
>> Our default nscd config caches lookup failures for 20 seconds by default
>> (see ‘nscd-cache’ in the manual.)  So if you look up a host before
>> networking is up, and it fails, then there’s a window during which
>> lookup will keep failing.
>>
>> I don’t know if that explains what you’re seeing.
>
> It can take much longer than 20 s upon a reboot to have the name
> resolution working again (more than 5 minutes), so that doesn't seem to
> explain it by itself.

Most of the time I have to restart my applications like icecat of emacs
when my network settings change.  I'm using wpa_supplicant and dhclient
by hand rather than wicd.

Something somewhere is caching network information longer than it should
be.

Re: NetworkManager instead of Wicd in ‘%desktop-services’?

[Maxim Cournoyer]

Hi,

On August 2, 2017 10:26:10 AM EDT, Adam Van Ymeren <adam@vany.ca> wrote:
>Maxim Cournoyer <maxim.cournoyer@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes:
>>
>>> Maxim Cournoyer <maxim.cournoyer@gmail.com> skribis:
>>>
>>>> I've noticed the same (lack of DNS resolution) following a reboot
>for
>>>> some minutes and was also wondering what was causing this. I'm
>using
>>>> wicd as part of the %desktop-services, so that specific problem is
>>>> probably not related to NetworkManager.
>>>
>>> Our default nscd config caches lookup failures for 20 seconds by
>default
>>> (see ‘nscd-cache’ in the manual.)  So if you look up a host before
>>> networking is up, and it fails, then there’s a window during which
>>> lookup will keep failing.
>>>
>>> I don’t know if that explains what you’re seeing.
>>
>> It can take much longer than 20 s upon a reboot to have the name
>> resolution working again (more than 5 minutes), so that doesn't seem
>to
>> explain it by itself.
>
>Most of the time I have to restart my applications like icecat of emacs
>when my network settings change.  I'm using wpa_supplicant and dhclient
>by hand rather than wicd.
>
>Something somewhere is caching network information longer than it
>should
>be.

FWIW, I was testing the dns with 'ping'.

Maxim

Re: NetworkManager instead of Wicd in ‘%desktop-services’?

[Ludovic Courtès]

Adam Van Ymeren <adam@vany.ca> skribis:

> Maxim Cournoyer <maxim.cournoyer@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes:
>>
>>> Maxim Cournoyer <maxim.cournoyer@gmail.com> skribis:
>>>
>>>> I've noticed the same (lack of DNS resolution) following a reboot for
>>>> some minutes and was also wondering what was causing this. I'm using
>>>> wicd as part of the %desktop-services, so that specific problem is
>>>> probably not related to NetworkManager.
>>>
>>> Our default nscd config caches lookup failures for 20 seconds by default
>>> (see ‘nscd-cache’ in the manual.)  So if you look up a host before
>>> networking is up, and it fails, then there’s a window during which
>>> lookup will keep failing.
>>>
>>> I don’t know if that explains what you’re seeing.
>>
>> It can take much longer than 20 s upon a reboot to have the name
>> resolution working again (more than 5 minutes), so that doesn't seem to
>> explain it by itself.
>
> Most of the time I have to restart my applications like icecat of emacs
> when my network settings change.  I'm using wpa_supplicant and dhclient
> by hand rather than wicd.
>
> Something somewhere is caching network information longer than it should
> be.

Could you try after running “sudo herd stop nscd”?

nscd caches host name lookups, so if you switch, say, to a captive
portal, you have to turn nscd off.

Ludo’.

Re: NetworkManager instead of Wicd in ‘%desktop-services’?

[Adam Van Ymeren]

ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes:

> Adam Van Ymeren <adam@vany.ca> skribis:
>> Most of the time I have to restart my applications like icecat of emacs
>> when my network settings change.  I'm using wpa_supplicant and dhclient
>> by hand rather than wicd.
>>
>> Something somewhere is caching network information longer than it should
>> be.
>
> Could you try after running “sudo herd stop nscd”?
>
> nscd caches host name lookups, so if you switch, say, to a captive
> portal, you have to turn nscd off.

I finally had the problem reproduce.  It only really appears to happen
to me when changing from wireless to wired (when I get
back home to my desk for instance).

In that situation, icecat would fail to resolve any hostnames.  However
when I do "# herd stop nscd" like you suggested icecat immediately
starts working again.  So perhaps nscd is being a bit sticky to which
interface it should be using?

Re: NetworkManager instead of Wicd in ‘%desktop-services’?

[Mekeor Melire]

Mark H Weaver <mhw@netris.org> writes:

> ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes:
>
>> Now, as someone who doesn’t use GNOME, I wonder if NM would work well
>> for me.  Last time I tried it’s CLI was too low-level to be usable, and
>> I don’t remember seeing a curses interface.  Suggestions?
>
> There is a curses interface included with Network Manager.  It's called
> 'nmtui'.  It's not getting built because it depends on 'newt', which is
> not an input to our Network Manager package.

Personally, I like to use the command-line interface of network-manager
called 'nmcli' which comes with it out of the box.

--
mekeor ~ EDD3 DFFA 76F6 11C0 145F 9A99 AC85 BAD8 A2F8 C868

Re: NetworkManager instead of Wicd in ‘%desktop-services’?

[Efraim Flashner]

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On Sun, Jul 30, 2017 at 04:50:58PM +0200, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
> Hello Guix!
> 
> Shouldn’t we replace Wicd with NetworkManager in ‘%desktop-services’?
> 
> I’ve given it a try on a GuixSD GNOME installation and it appears to
> work well, and it’s obviously well-integrated with GNOME, whereas Wicd
> is a bit hidden (one has to know what to look for) and “foreign.”
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> Now, as someone who doesn’t use GNOME, I wonder if NM would work well
> for me.  Last time I tried it’s CLI was too low-level to be usable, and
> I don’t remember seeing a curses interface.  Suggestions?
> 
> Thanks,
> Ludo’.
> 

For its integration with gnome to me it makes sense to have our gnome
desktop use network manager. I'm currently using connman on my debian
system. I'm not sure I'd really recommend it, but I've found it to be
easier to use than raw command line ifconfig and dhclient.

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Re: NetworkManager instead of Wicd in ‘%desktop-services’?

[Kei Kebreau]

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ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes:

> Hello Guix!
>
> Shouldn’t we replace Wicd with NetworkManager in ‘%desktop-services’?
>
> I’ve given it a try on a GuixSD GNOME installation and it appears to
> work well, and it’s obviously well-integrated with GNOME, whereas Wicd
> is a bit hidden (one has to know what to look for) and “foreign.”
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Now, as someone who doesn’t use GNOME, I wonder if NM would work well
> for me.  Last time I tried it’s CLI was too low-level to be usable, and
> I don’t remember seeing a curses interface.  Suggestions?
>
> Thanks,
> Ludo’.

I'm in favor of the change as long as NetworkManager's equivalents to
wicd-gtk and wicd-curses are installed by default. Mark brought up
nmtui; that sounds like something we should enable. Also, it would be
nice to have notifications work (if they don't already) when using
nm-applet. I hear that this depends on xfce4-notifyd?

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Re: NetworkManager instead of Wicd in ‘%desktop-services’?

[Andy Wingo]

On Mon 31 Jul 2017 03:35, Kei Kebreau <kei@openmailbox.org> writes:

> ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes:
>
>> Hello Guix!
>>
>> Shouldn’t we replace Wicd with NetworkManager in ‘%desktop-services’?
>>
>> I’ve given it a try on a GuixSD GNOME installation and it appears to
>> work well, and it’s obviously well-integrated with GNOME, whereas Wicd
>> is a bit hidden (one has to know what to look for) and “foreign.”
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> Now, as someone who doesn’t use GNOME, I wonder if NM would work well
>> for me.  Last time I tried it’s CLI was too low-level to be usable, and
>> I don’t remember seeing a curses interface.  Suggestions?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Ludo’.
>
> I'm in favor of the change as long as NetworkManager's equivalents to
> wicd-gtk and wicd-curses are installed by default. Mark brought up
> nmtui; that sounds like something we should enable. Also, it would be
> nice to have notifications work (if they don't already) when using
> nm-applet. I hear that this depends on xfce4-notifyd?

It seems like all GNOME users are ready for this change.  I tried it out
locally and it's quite nice.  Patch like this:

    diff --git a/gnu/services/desktop.scm b/gnu/services/desktop.scm
    index 0509bd8a4..f12fe78e5 100644
    --- a/gnu/services/desktop.scm
    +++ b/gnu/services/desktop.scm
    @@ -810,7 +810,8 @@ with the administrator's password."
     
              ;; The D-Bus clique.
              (avahi-service)
    -         (wicd-service)
    +         (service network-manager-service-type)
    +         (service wpa-supplicant-service-type)
              (udisks-service)
              (upower-service)
              (accountsservice-service)

The network manager command also seems to include `nmtui' for a
curses-based interface, and `nmcli' for a command-line interface.  I
don't know if there's an applet or something like that, but of course
that could be installed as part of the xfce-desktop-service package.
Seems to me like network manager could be a good default for Guix
desktop systems.

Andy

Re: NetworkManager instead of Wicd in ‘%desktop-services’?

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hi,

Andy Wingo <wingo@igalia.com> skribis:

> It seems like all GNOME users are ready for this change.  I tried it out
> locally and it's quite nice.  Patch like this:
>
>     diff --git a/gnu/services/desktop.scm b/gnu/services/desktop.scm
>     index 0509bd8a4..f12fe78e5 100644
>     --- a/gnu/services/desktop.scm
>     +++ b/gnu/services/desktop.scm
>     @@ -810,7 +810,8 @@ with the administrator's password."
>      
>               ;; The D-Bus clique.
>               (avahi-service)
>     -         (wicd-service)
>     +         (service network-manager-service-type)
>     +         (service wpa-supplicant-service-type)
>               (udisks-service)
>               (upower-service)
>               (accountsservice-service)

For GNOME it’s definitely better than Wicd.

> The network manager command also seems to include `nmtui' for a
> curses-based interface, and `nmcli' for a command-line interface.  I
> don't know if there's an applet or something like that, but of course
> that could be installed as part of the xfce-desktop-service package.
> Seems to me like network manager could be a good default for Guix
> desktop systems.

I went as far as switching to NM on my GNOME-less laptop.  ;-)  nmtui
works well for me, and overall NM works better than Wicd (it reconnects
more reliably and more quickly to wireless networks AFAICS.)

A GTK+ interface to NM similar to that of Wicd (i.e., not the GNOME
applet) would also be welcome; does anyone know of such a thing?

Overall, NM seems to work better than Wicd, whether or not one uses
GNOME.  Even if the issue Chris Marusich mentioned still applies, I
think switching to NM in ‘%desktop-services’ would be a net win.

Are there objections to this?

Ludo’.

Re: NetworkManager instead of Wicd in ‘%desktop-services’?

[Mark H Weaver]

ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes:

> Andy Wingo <wingo@igalia.com> skribis:
>
>> It seems like all GNOME users are ready for this change.  I tried it out
>> locally and it's quite nice.  Patch like this:
>>
>>     diff --git a/gnu/services/desktop.scm b/gnu/services/desktop.scm
>>     index 0509bd8a4..f12fe78e5 100644
>>     --- a/gnu/services/desktop.scm
>>     +++ b/gnu/services/desktop.scm
>>     @@ -810,7 +810,8 @@ with the administrator's password."
>>      
>>               ;; The D-Bus clique.
>>               (avahi-service)
>>     -         (wicd-service)
>>     +         (service network-manager-service-type)
>>     +         (service wpa-supplicant-service-type)
>>               (udisks-service)
>>               (upower-service)
>>               (accountsservice-service)
>
> For GNOME it’s definitely better than Wicd.
>
>> The network manager command also seems to include `nmtui' for a
>> curses-based interface, and `nmcli' for a command-line interface.  I
>> don't know if there's an applet or something like that, but of course
>> that could be installed as part of the xfce-desktop-service package.

There's a 'network-manager-applet' package, already in Guix.  I've used
it with Xfce in the past, and it seemed to work well.

>> Seems to me like network manager could be a good default for Guix
>> desktop systems.

Agreed.

> I went as far as switching to NM on my GNOME-less laptop.  ;-)  nmtui
> works well for me, and overall NM works better than Wicd (it reconnects
> more reliably and more quickly to wireless networks AFAICS.)
>
> A GTK+ interface to NM similar to that of Wicd (i.e., not the GNOME
> applet) would also be welcome; does anyone know of such a thing?
>
> Overall, NM seems to work better than Wicd, whether or not one uses
> GNOME.  Even if the issue Chris Marusich mentioned still applies, I
> think switching to NM in ‘%desktop-services’ would be a net win.

I think we should do this.

       Mark

Re: NetworkManager instead of Wicd in ‘%desktop-services’?

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hi,

Mark H Weaver <mhw@netris.org> skribis:

> ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes:

[...]

>> Overall, NM seems to work better than Wicd, whether or not one uses
>> GNOME.  Even if the issue Chris Marusich mentioned still applies, I
>> think switching to NM in ‘%desktop-services’ would be a net win.
>
> I think we should do this.

Done!

  https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/commit/?id=4110fbc6dd9e22f05ef738da7abbd72feaea93f9

Ludo’.

Re: NetworkManager instead of Wicd in ‘%desktop-services’?

[Chris Marusich]

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ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes:

> Hello Guix!
>
> Shouldn’t we replace Wicd with NetworkManager in ‘%desktop-services’?

Did we ever resolve the issue where NetworkManager wouldn't
automatically connect [1]?  I haven't tried it recently.

[1] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2016-12/msg00493.html

-- 
Chris

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Re: NetworkManager instead of Wicd in ‘%desktop-services’?

[Ludovic Courtès]

Chris Marusich <cmmarusich@gmail.com> skribis:

> ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes:
>
>> Hello Guix!
>>
>> Shouldn’t we replace Wicd with NetworkManager in ‘%desktop-services’?
>
> Did we ever resolve the issue where NetworkManager wouldn't
> automatically connect [1]?  I haven't tried it recently.
>
> [1] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2016-12/msg00493.html

I tested with a wired network, and it does connect automatically both on
startup and if I unplug/re-plug the Ethernet cable.

Perhaps it “fixed itself”?

Ludo’.

Re: NetworkManager instead of Wicd in ‘%desktop-services’?

[aurelien]

ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes:

> Chris Marusich <cmmarusich@gmail.com> skribis:
>
>> ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes:
>>
>>> Hello Guix!
>>>
>>> Shouldn’t we replace Wicd with NetworkManager in ‘%desktop-services’?
>>
>> Did we ever resolve the issue where NetworkManager wouldn't
>> automatically connect [1]?  I haven't tried it recently.
>>
>> [1] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2016-12/msg00493.html
>
> I tested with a wired network, and it does connect automatically both on
> startup and if I unplug/re-plug the Ethernet cable.
>
> Perhaps it “fixed itself”?
>
> Ludo’.
>
>

Hello Guix!

Well I do not understand why you prefer network manager or wicd when
netctl does the job perfectly.

But for thus who want to use nmcli (the network manager command line) I
have write that for you

https://github.com/aurelien-git/bash/blob/master/nmcli-sec/nmcli-sec.sh

:-)

Kind regards


-- aurelien

Re: NetworkManager instead of Wicd in ‘%desktop-services’?

[maze]

>> ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes:
>> 
>>> Hello Guix!
>>> 
>>> Shouldn’t we replace Wicd with NetworkManager in ‘%desktop-services’?
>> 
>> Did we ever resolve the issue where NetworkManager wouldn't
>> automatically connect [1]?  I haven't tried it recently.
>> 
>> [1] 
>> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2016-12/msg00493.html
> 
> I tested with a wired network, and it does connect automatically both 
> on
> startup and if I unplug/re-plug the Ethernet cable.
> 
> Perhaps it “fixed itself”?

For me, it does work with a wired connection as well, but _not_ for a 
wireless network. So the issue seems to persist.

Martin

Re: NetworkManager instead of Wicd in ‘%desktop-services’?

[ng0]

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maze@strahlungsfrei.de transcribed 0.7K bytes:
> > > ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes:
> > > 
> > > > Hello Guix!
> > > > 
> > > > Shouldn’t we replace Wicd with NetworkManager in ‘%desktop-services’?
> > > 
> > > Did we ever resolve the issue where NetworkManager wouldn't
> > > automatically connect [1]?  I haven't tried it recently.
> > > 
> > > [1]
> > > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2016-12/msg00493.html
> > 
> > I tested with a wired network, and it does connect automatically both on
> > startup and if I unplug/re-plug the Ethernet cable.
> > 
> > Perhaps it “fixed itself”?
> 
> For me, it does work with a wired connection as well, but _not_ for a
> wireless network. So the issue seems to persist.
> 
> Martin
> 
> 

That's not very clear. What do you mean by wifi does not work?
Absolutely? Only on startup with networkmanager?
Only when connection drops?

For me at least wifi with network manager works for weeks now.
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Re: NetworkManager instead of Wicd in ‘%desktop-services’?

[ng0]

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Forwarded to the thread on the list.
Martin Honermeyer transcribed 1.9K bytes:
> 
> 
> Am Do, 10. Aug, 2017 um 9:36 schrieb ng0 <ng0@infotropique.org>:
> > >  For me, it does work with a wired connection as well, but _not_ for
> > > a
> > >  wireless network. So the issue seems to persist.
> > > 
> > >  Martin
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > That's not very clear. What do you mean by wifi does not work?
> > Absolutely? Only on startup with networkmanager?
> > Only when connection drops?
> > 
> > For me at least wifi with network manager works for weeks now.
> 
> Yes, upon first start of network manager it does not autoconnect to the wifi
> network, although it has been configured to do so. I have to select it
> manually each time in nm-applet.
> 
> Unfortunately I won't have any time to investigate this further until in a
> few weeks.

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