NAS hardware recommendations

NAS hardware recommendations

[Pierre Neidhardt]

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Hi Guix!

Has anyone had luck installing Guix on a NAS?
If so, which one?

If not, which NAS hardware would you recommend?
I'm looking for

- something as open as possible;
- 3-4 bays;
- lowest consumption possible;
- Btrfs support.

Any tips?

Cheers!

-- 
Pierre Neidhardt
https://ambrevar.xyz/

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Re: NAS hardware recommendations

[david larsson]

On 2020-12-08 16:51, Pierre Neidhardt wrote:
> Hi Guix!
> 
> Has anyone had luck installing Guix on a NAS?
> If so, which one?
> 
> If not, which NAS hardware would you recommend?
> I'm looking for
> 
> - something as open as possible;
> - 3-4 bays;
> - lowest consumption possible;
> - Btrfs support.
> 
> Any tips?
> 
> Cheers!

Ive always wanted a GnuBee which is very open. Idle power is 11.64 W. 
There is both a 3.5" and 2.5" version - it has a MIPS processor though. 
Also, I don't know if you can actually still order them anywhere:

https://www.crowdsupply.com/gnubee/personal-cloud-1

Guix has some old support for installing on MIPS:

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2015-08/msg00500.html


Otherwise, the very open Vikings D8, has 6 SATA 300mb/s slots, but 
perhaps not really what you are looking for and it's pretty expensive.

https://store.vikings.net/libre-friendly-hardware/d8ryf



Best regards,
David

Re: NAS hardware recommendations

[zloster]

On 9.12.2020 18:46, david larsson wrote:
> On 2020-12-08 16:51, Pierre Neidhardt wrote:
>> Hi Guix!
>>
>> Has anyone had luck installing Guix on a NAS?
>> If so, which one?
>>
>> If not, which NAS hardware would you recommend?
>> I'm looking for
>>
>> - something as open as possible;
>> - 3-4 bays;
>> - lowest consumption possible;
>> - Btrfs support.
>>
>> Any tips?
>>
>> Cheers!
>
> Ive always wanted a GnuBee which is very open. Idle power is 11.64 W. 
> There is both a 3.5" and 2.5" version - it has a MIPS processor 
> though. Also, I don't know if you can actually still order them anywhere:
>
> https://www.crowdsupply.com/gnubee/personal-cloud-1
>
> Guix has some old support for installing on MIPS:
>
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2015-08/msg00500.html
>
>
> Otherwise, the very open Vikings D8, has 6 SATA 300mb/s slots, but 
> perhaps not really what you are looking for and it's pretty expensive.
>
> https://store.vikings.net/libre-friendly-hardware/d8ryf
>
I know about the Helios64 NAS. It has ARMv8 CPU and good feature set:
https://shop.kobol.io/product/helios64-full-bundle/ - 300 USD before 
international shipping and taxes
https://wiki.kobol.io/helios64/intro/ - Rockchip RK3399 with 2x 
Cortex-A72 + 4x Cortex-A53; 2,5Gbps + 1Gbps networking, 4GB RAM, 5 disks 
(one is shared with the M.2 SATA 3.0 Slot), integrated small backup battery
They reported some problem with their 2,5Gbps network wiring: 
https://blog.kobol.io/2020/11/13/helios64-2-5g-ethernet-issue/
Currently sold out, they offer notification for the second batch. I'm 
not aware for ETA.

Also for DIY low powered home NAS you could check the mini-ITX 
motherboards with the embedded CPUs and some computer case like Fractal 
Design Core 500 (4 3,5" bays + some 2,5" physically separate bays). Of 
course you will NOT get externally accessible drive bays.
In fact I use the following components for a home server (4 years 
currently):
Motherboard: 
https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA-N3150N-D3V-rev-10/sp#sp - 4 SATA 
3.0 ports and 2x1Gbps Ethernet
Case: Fractal Design Core 500
RAM: 2x8GB DDR3L (laptop)
Power supply: Corsair VS400 or VS450 ATX (I don't remember)

I hope this will help you with your search.
Cheers

Re: NAS hardware recommendations

[Pierre Neidhardt]

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Hi zloster!

> https://wiki.kobol.io/helios64/intro/

Neat!  I like it a lot, seems to be ticking all boxes!
Except that I can't buy it :(
Still hunting for a retailer...

> Also for DIY low powered home NAS you could check the mini-ITX 
> motherboards with the embedded CPUs and some computer case like Fractal 
> Design Core 500 (4 3,5" bays + some 2,5" physically separate bays). Of 
> course you will NOT get externally accessible drive bays.
> In fact I use the following components for a home server (4 years 
> currently):
> Motherboard: 
> https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA-N3150N-D3V-rev-10/sp#sp - 4 SATA 
> 3.0 ports and 2x1Gbps Ethernet
> Case: Fractal Design Core 500
> RAM: 2x8GB DDR3L (laptop)
> Power supply: Corsair VS400 or VS450 ATX (I don't remember)

This could be an option indeed.
Any idea how much the above would cost?
And what's the power consumption?

Cheers!

-- 
Pierre Neidhardt
https://ambrevar.xyz/

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Re: NAS hardware recommendations

[zloster]

On 10.12.2020 16:43, Pierre Neidhardt wrote:
> Hi zloster!
>
>> https://wiki.kobol.io/helios64/intro/
> Neat!  I like it a lot, seems to be ticking all boxes!
> Except that I can't buy it :(
> Still hunting for a retailer...
As far as I know they only sell direct - so the final price will depend 
on where you live.
If Europe/EU I expect the total to come around 350 euro (300 usd + VAT + 
delivery).
>
>> Also for DIY low powered home NAS you could check the mini-ITX
>> motherboards with the embedded CPUs and some computer case like Fractal
>> Design Core 500 (4 3,5" bays + some 2,5" physically separate bays). Of
>> course you will NOT get externally accessible drive bays.
>> In fact I use the following components for a home server (4 years
>> currently):
>> Motherboard:
>> https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA-N3150N-D3V-rev-10/sp#sp - 4 SATA
>> 3.0 ports and 2x1Gbps Ethernet
>> Case: Fractal Design Core 500
>> RAM: 2x8GB DDR3L (laptop)
>> Power supply: Corsair VS400 or VS450 ATX (I don't remember)
> This could be an option indeed.
> Any idea how much the above would cost?
> And what's the power consumption?
>
> Cheers!
>
The power consumption is low. Of course tt can't beat the SBCs. The 
embedded CPUs are 6-10W of TDP. Add 1-2W per DDR RAM module and the 
power consumption of the HDDs (around 5W per HDD in active R/W state).

Using the UPS reporting mine gives 65 Watts consumption of the 
homeserver (with 3 drives and very light load), ER-X router and 2,4/5GHz 
wireless router. The ER-X and the wireless router should consume not 
more than 10 Watts combined.

Here is a review with the power consumption report of J5005 motherboard 
(between 9 and 17 Watts with 1 RAM stick and 1 SSD): 
https://www.servethehome.com/intel-pentium-silver-j5005-benchmarks-and-review/3/

Also note the CPU processing power: 
https://www.techpowerup.com/244596/intel-pentium-silver-j5005-catches-up-with-legendary-core-2-quad-q6600

Also good words for these little motherboards here: 
https://openbsdrouterguide.net/


About the cost (*in Europe*):

1) the case if at the expensive end - it should be around 60 Euro 
including VAT. But it has an air filters and includes 140 mm fan. 
Important note - *the 3,5" bays are 3 not 4. *But if you don't use the 
optical disk drive bay (ODD bay) than you can use it for a 3,5" HDD.

2) the power supply - 300-400W should be possible for around 30-50 Euro 
incl. VAT. The premium ones will hit around 50 Euro. One advice - choose 
with the biggest possible fan: gives lower noise.

There is also an option for PicoATX and laptop power adapter - but their 
combined price will be more and you will need additional power 
connectors for the disk drives.

3) the RAM - 16 GB DDR4 2400/2666 MHz SODIMM currently is around 65-100 
Euro per module. I saw reports that the newer embedded processors 
supports up to 2x16 GB modules (total 32 Gigabytes) of memory.

Sources:

https://pawelrychlicki.pl/Home/Details/57/-intel-pentium-silver-j5005-supports-16gb-of-ram-asrock-j5005itx

https://www.speicher.de/arbeitsspeicher-blog/32gb-arbeitsspeicher-asrock-j4105-itx 
(in German)

4) the motherboards - they should be around 100 Euro including VAT for 
the variants with additional 2 SATA channels (total of 4 SATA 3.0 for 4 
HDDs). The price varies and depends on what is available where you live. 
See below for some motherboards. IMHO up to around 130-140 Euro (for the 
more powerful quad core variants) it's acceptable.


So the total cost currently:

60 + 50 + 65 + 100 = 275 EUR for 16 Gigabytes of RAM incl. VAT

60 + 50 + 2x65 + 100 = 340 EUR for 32 Gigabyte of RAM incl. VAT


The cost comes awfully close to the above cute NAS system :)


Motherboards list:

https://www.newegg.com/asrock-j5040-itx-mini-itx/p/N82E16813157967 - 
this MB has 4 SATA but one 1Gbps Ethernet. If the Ethernet is a problem 
there are 2/4 port PCIE NICS with 1xPCIE. 4-port 1Gbps should saturate 
the PCIE 2.0 single lane slot.

In Germany the price is 138,42 Euro: 
https://www.jacob.de/produkte/mb-j5040-itx-intel-90-mxbcd0-a0uayz-artnr-6791344.html?ref=54&wgu=6603_85742_16077005623835_96dbfc34e1&wgexpiry=1615476562&cid=6603_85742_16077005623835_96dbfc34e1


https://www.asrock.com/MB/Intel/J5005-ITX/index.asp#Specification - this 
MB is like the above

https://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/J4105-ITX/index.asp#Specification

https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/GA-J3455N-D3H-rev-10/sp#sp - this 
MB is with older CPU. It's with DD3L so the max memory is 2x8GB = 16 GB.

Re: NAS hardware recommendations

[Pierre Neidhardt]

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Hi zloster!

Thanks for the detailed report and the resourceful links! :)

After some investigation, I think I'll go for one of the ASRock.
I could find them at the following price:

- ASRock J3455-ITX: 98€
- ASRock J4105-ITX: 100€
- ASRock J5005-ITX: 120€
- ASRock J5040-ITX: 150€

I'll go for the cheapest option.
No the j3455 and the j4105 are basically the same, the main difference
being memory.

j3455 has SO-DIMM 204 pins (DDR3)
j4105 has SO-DIMM 260 pins (DDR4)

Any recommendation regarding memory?  Has DDR3L a lower power consumption?

For the rest, I'll just get a second hand computer for 30-50€ that has a
4GB of RAM, so I can get the whole thing to run on 130-150€.  In that
sense, it's cheaper than any NAS I can find on the market! :)

Cheers!

-- 
Pierre Neidhardt
https://ambrevar.xyz/

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Re: NAS hardware recommendations

[Efraim Flashner]

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On Sat, Dec 12, 2020 at 06:26:46PM +0100, Pierre Neidhardt wrote:
> Hi zloster!
> 
> Thanks for the detailed report and the resourceful links! :)
> 
> After some investigation, I think I'll go for one of the ASRock.
> I could find them at the following price:
> 
> - ASRock J3455-ITX: 98€
> - ASRock J4105-ITX: 100€
> - ASRock J5005-ITX: 120€
> - ASRock J5040-ITX: 150€
> 
> I'll go for the cheapest option.
> No the j3455 and the j4105 are basically the same, the main difference
> being memory.
> 
> j3455 has SO-DIMM 204 pins (DDR3)
> j4105 has SO-DIMM 260 pins (DDR4)
> 
> Any recommendation regarding memory?  Has DDR3L a lower power consumption?

Last I checked DDR3L SODIMMs use 1.35V of power. The DDR4 DIMMS I have
on my desk also say 1.35V.

> For the rest, I'll just get a second hand computer for 30-50€ that has a
> 4GB of RAM, so I can get the whole thing to run on 130-150€.  In that
> sense, it's cheaper than any NAS I can find on the market! :)
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> -- 
> Pierre Neidhardt
> https://ambrevar.xyz/



-- 
Efraim Flashner   <efraim@flashner.co.il>   אפרים פלשנר
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Confidentiality cannot be guaranteed on emails sent or received unencrypted

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Re: NAS hardware recommendations

[Pierre Neidhardt]

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Hi Efraim!

Efraim Flashner <efraim@flashner.co.il> writes:

> Last I checked DDR3L SODIMMs use 1.35V of power. The DDR4 DIMMS I have
> on my desk also say 1.35V.

What about the current then?  Should we expect the same amperage across
all types of DIMMs?  I'm a bit ignorant here :p

-- 
Pierre Neidhardt
https://ambrevar.xyz/

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Re: NAS hardware recommendations

[Efraim Flashner]

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On Sat, Dec 12, 2020 at 08:51:32PM +0100, Pierre Neidhardt wrote:
> Hi Efraim!
> 
> Efraim Flashner <efraim@flashner.co.il> writes:
> 
> > Last I checked DDR3L SODIMMs use 1.35V of power. The DDR4 DIMMS I have
> > on my desk also say 1.35V.
> 
> What about the current then?  Should we expect the same amperage across
> all types of DIMMs?  I'm a bit ignorant here :p
> 

That's not something I know that much about. I assume they should use
the same amount of amperage, but I have no basis for that. My guess is
that if it is different it's not going to vary by very much.

-- 
Efraim Flashner   <efraim@flashner.co.il>   אפרים פלשנר
GPG key = A28B F40C 3E55 1372 662D  14F7 41AA E7DC CA3D 8351
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Re: NAS hardware recommendations

[zloster]

On 12.12.2020 19:26, Pierre Neidhardt wrote:
> Hi zloster!
>
> Thanks for the detailed report and the resourceful links! :)
>
> After some investigation, I think I'll go for one of the ASRock.
> I could find them at the following price:
>
> - ASRock J3455-ITX: 98€
> - ASRock J4105-ITX: 100€
> - ASRock J5005-ITX: 120€
> - ASRock J5040-ITX: 150€
>
> I'll go for the cheapest option.
> No the j3455 and the j4105 are basically the same, the main difference
> being memory.
>
> j3455 has SO-DIMM 204 pins (DDR3)
> j4105 has SO-DIMM 260 pins (DDR4)
>
> Any recommendation regarding memory?  Has DDR3L a lower power consumption?
DDR4 has lower standard voltage than DDR3(L)*.
DDR4 - 1,2 V
DDR3 - 1,5 V
DDR3L - 1,35 V
*for the standard transfer speeds - 2400 MT (megatransfers?!) for DDR4, 
1600 MT for DDR3(L).

Some examples:
https://www.servethehome.com/ddr4-dimms-system-power-consumption-tested/
27 Watts less after removing 12 modules with 8GB DDR4 RAM
27/12 = 2,25 Watts per module

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-core-i7-5960x-haswell-e-cpu,3918-13.html
Power Consumption: Crucial DDR4-2133
32 GB (Four Modules)    11.85 W
16 GB (Two Modules)    5.94 W
8 GB (One Module)    2.98 W
4 GB (Rated)    1.49 W
For the other speeds the data is similar.

https://www.micron.com/-/media/client/global/documents/products/technical-note/dram/tn4007_ddr4_power_calculation.pdf
Very comprehensive writing about memory consumption. I've also found 
some other research on the topic but it is on another computer and I'm 
too lazy to search for it again. Basically the research said that the 
Micron model gives very conservative (i.e. big numbers, gives higher 
consumption than normal) but it all depends on how busy is the memory bus.
> For the rest, I'll just get a second hand computer for 30-50€ that has a
> 4GB of RAM, so I can get the whole thing to run on 130-150€.  In that
> sense, it's cheaper than any NAS I can find on the market! :)
This calculation is valid if you don't factor in the electricity prices. 
In most places the electricity is relatively expensive.
0,3 kWatts (i.e. 300 Watt system) * 12 hours (1/2 day) = 3,6 kWh

i.e. 3,6 * 2 = consumption for 24 hours.

For UK:
7,2 kWh * 0,144 GBP (average price of electricity in UK) = 1,0368 GBP 
per day (1,0368 GBP is 1,14 EUR using the today exchange rate).
https://powercompare.co.uk/electricity-prices/

So for a systems running 24/7 there is good reason to search and pay for 
the lowest consumption per given performance need.


Best regards,
zloster

Re: NAS hardware recommendations

[Pierre Neidhardt]

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Hi!

Thanks for the details about RAM power consumption, very useful!

>> For the rest, I'll just get a second hand computer for 30-50€ that has a
>> 4GB of RAM, so I can get the whole thing to run on 130-150€.  In that
>> sense, it's cheaper than any NAS I can find on the market! :)
> This calculation is valid if you don't factor in the electricity prices. 
> In most places the electricity is relatively expensive.
> 0,3 kWatts (i.e. 300 Watt system) * 12 hours (1/2 day) = 3,6 kWh

Maybe there is a misunderstanding, I'm precisely trying to save on
electricity (and thus costs).

Maybe I'm misunderstood about how power supplies work, but isn't 300W
the capacity?  It should not consume as much as 300W on idle, or does
it?

Cheers!

-- 
Pierre Neidhardt
https://ambrevar.xyz/

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Re: NAS hardware recommendations

[Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide]

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Pierre Neidhardt <mail@ambrevar.xyz> writes:

> Maybe I'm misunderstood about how power supplies work, but isn't 300W
> the capacity?  It should not consume as much as 300W on idle, or does
> it?

Mine has 400W capacity but consumes just 30W on idle. Get something to
measure power consumption at the wall-power-connector. That’s your
source of truth.

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein
ohne es zu merken

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Re: NAS hardware recommendations

[zimoun]

Hi,

> Has anyone had luck installing Guix on a NAS?
> If so, which one?

It could be awesome to output a FreeNAS-like based on Guix. :-)


Cheers,
simon

Re: NAS hardware recommendations

[Pierre Neidhardt]

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Hi David!

> https://www.crowdsupply.com/gnubee/personal-cloud-1

And here is the link for the 3.5" version:

https://www.crowdsupply.com/gnubee/personal-cloud-2

Very cool stuff!  I'll see if I can order it.  Although the state of
MIPS support in Guix makes it a second choice I suppose.  I'll see.

> Otherwise, the very open Vikings D8, has 6 SATA 300mb/s slots, but 
> perhaps not really what you are looking for and it's pretty expensive.
>
> https://store.vikings.net/libre-friendly-hardware/d8ryf

Indeed, it seems that this is a bit too much for a simple NAS, in
particular power consumption might be too high :p

Thanks for the recommendations!

Cheers!

-- 
Pierre Neidhardt
https://ambrevar.xyz/

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Re: NAS hardware recommendations

[david larsson]

On 2020-12-10 15:41, Pierre Neidhardt wrote:
> Hi David!
> 
>> https://www.crowdsupply.com/gnubee/personal-cloud-1
> 
> And here is the link for the 3.5" version:
> 
> https://www.crowdsupply.com/gnubee/personal-cloud-2
> 
> Very cool stuff!  I'll see if I can order it.  Although the state of
> MIPS support in Guix makes it a second choice I suppose.  I'll see.

If it works out - or not - I would love to hear about it!

> 
>> Otherwise, the very open Vikings D8, has 6 SATA 300mb/s slots, but
>> perhaps not really what you are looking for and it's pretty expensive.
>> 
>> https://store.vikings.net/libre-friendly-hardware/d8ryf
> 
> Indeed, it seems that this is a bit too much for a simple NAS, in
> particular power consumption might be too high :p
> 
> Thanks for the recommendations!
> 
> Cheers!

You're welcome!

Best regards,
David