From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp11.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id kJXUBcdD2GNcpgAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2023 23:25:11 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp11.migadu.com with LMTPS id KNDUBcdD2GO7TwEA9RJhRA (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2023 23:25:11 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4A5917F7 for ; Mon, 30 Jan 2023 23:25:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pMcZz-00007E-0H; Mon, 30 Jan 2023 17:24:47 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pMcZs-0008RY-K1 for guix-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2023 17:24:40 -0500 Received: from mira.cbaines.net ([212.71.252.8]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pMcZh-0004c8-Pk for guix-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 30 Jan 2023 17:24:31 -0500 Received: from localhost (unknown [IPv6:2a02:8010:68c1:0:54d1:d5d4:280e:f699]) by mira.cbaines.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B47EC27BBE9; Mon, 30 Jan 2023 22:24:26 +0000 (GMT) Received: from felis (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id a5104b24; Mon, 30 Jan 2023 22:24:25 +0000 (UTC) References: <87cz8no0a0.fsf@cbaines.net> <874jsq40cj.fsf@cbaines.net> <87k01k2ef5.fsf@cbaines.net> User-agent: mu4e 1.8.11; emacs 28.2 From: Christopher Baines To: Andreas Enge Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: Proposed changes to the commit policy (#59513) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2023 22:03:14 +0000 In-reply-to: Message-ID: <877cx34q5k.fsf@cbaines.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.71.252.8; envelope-from=mail@cbaines.net; helo=mira.cbaines.net X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1675117510; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post; bh=oGE21YkBdiYQSYNLPX+lJMJiHeJd1iqzMlk84N7gaDI=; b=uLJWOQhz3fABDsW0tryAGy4nVnEfua7oRaSF2G2Rt5ktOZctjIY0xqcudGzGn5wz7cMIhj ajDzpG9aMq+wS4exQpFnID10FDQ8W5WFP6UPw9mT/1U2CyBdHZUO81xJ5Xl2eMf0rHhCtZ VXiVE8KPxE+huST4OzWRjXdlvwEWaIYZchjIOJ+GbtJfkW8v5jmsLA9NYHKvrD2sHex3Uk KDfqP2ywVX2Fnp+TVfH+pH0jCnrRS7AKrSz5P2zo1ZXd7ZsOrIAxm379tr5lTeYLkv7CQC Ei//ePZlvywJ4vSRD8d4JlfrblaVcLgbbg5b9h7YZvxkA6teYi2k0fyZRvjIfA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=none ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1675117510; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=NlA3WGJOTxjBSO5EX+VdHlDOmnPFheTIkwYgfbPHcJZ36ards9cgb65Vs8WjOtwRVWE9fe /CLvGzfWnSlMszyNty/zbC6mAtjnvt3hC6lXfyF790Q0Cg986X+m2piAmZ8ncoNDIpWL0F 4C+Q4yP4xD1UT9Cd+K0Gw2z+oXuCt/coYR9OnSBvgVYdKRSSp4IHarVy6WnTD9G2TX+qHF wIFMhlhdXc1MFqr75y1u6yQvKlW8y4IR5tIPXJQSbI355exi5paDriURX3hczrhe/V/IzE 1AtJbHqNPnGndmafuIbiCQZ9juh5t/F8mUYliHCS3VjglM/ILJfzPe9DsvdT0g== Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=none X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-Spam-Score: -3.98 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: E4A5917F7 X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.98 X-TUID: ZbvcNL97SO4a --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Andreas Enge writes: > Am Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 11:45:20AM +0000 schrieb Christopher Baines: >> > as a quick concrete question: Do simple package updates still count as >> > trivial, or do they need to go through the patches mailing list? >> My feeling on this is that "simple" package updates are often not >> trivial, or at least doing rigorous testing for these updates isn't >> trivial. A definition of trivial might be "having little value or >> importance", and I don't think that's generally the case for version >> updates, they're often a valuable and important change. > > So I tried it once, and find the hassle offputting. It feels like doubling > the effort - after doing the real work, I need to get back to it a week > later and more or less go through the motions again (rebase the commit > and resign it, recompile Guix, build the package again just in case), > plus the debbugs effort. > > So expect even less package updates from my part in the future... These > were the kind of instant gratification actions one could do more or less > in the background, and they have become more complex administrative > endeavours with delayed gratification. (I also do not know how to set up > git-sendmail with my remote SMTP server login and password, but this is > a one-time cost of learning which does not matter that much.) I appreciate feeling put off by this, although I'd maybe reframe it as balancing quality with other factors, and how that's going to change for Guix as a project over time. In the past and currently to some extent, it's been possible to move very quickly without comprimising on quality. However, my feeling on this is that if we want to have quality support for non x86_64-linux architectures, reproducible builds, packages that build reliably, ... then that's going to require more effort. That might mean some changes happen more slowly, but this is why I'm working on the tools and processes, as I think that's a path to trying to maintain and improve the quality while reducing the impact to pace and enjoyment. I'm sure there are ways of addressing at least some of the problems you mention above, so it's really valuable to mention them so that we can work towards solutions. 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