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[172.221.246.205]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h23sm2511782ila.32.2021.09.21.13.20.33 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 21 Sep 2021 13:20:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Katherine Cox-Buday To: Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= Subject: Re: =?utf-8?B?4oCcV2hhdOKAmXM=?= in a =?utf-8?Q?package=E2=80=9D?= References: <87wnnbpgnp.fsf@inria.fr> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 15:20:20 -0500 In-Reply-To: <87wnnbpgnp.fsf@inria.fr> ("Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s=22?= =?utf-8?Q?'s?= message of "Mon, 20 Sep 2021 14:36:58 +0200") Message-ID: <875yutwuij.fsf@gmail.com> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.2 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::134; envelope-from=cox.katherine.e@gmail.com; helo=mail-il1-x134.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org, guix-science@gnu.org Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1632257253; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=X332HipwwuLX6X2XqMyTRjslctBM+1Ya8NXzOsUa/OA=; b=JffJbO7Iea4O8eVPmNBLAON7rEjEfH72S190vn9iHrAUF/PTRz5HFiMx9b2ZaxBWmiW6N2 eBq1w0sCHOpVobckRGD+SboL5e9rdXZ9GXYDw6o/2PEYpoPNcqLpbXGbcYYDlngQd991Wj BKDa0b+WQv0zX8TZNhn1EjV2WT9iJn64nyWh8UZ7rqB6a9bPdFZegwtPyoYydJ/25DpR4i 1+XIM4SCaETulp6ixutxfjdg4g+uqeeZ29B+29v+UjRbBK2k9EcpllRBJ66TQ7/Q6Ia4zD RjlFHzvTwZ01S91Qxm5NuiXNPh5D3uG7SIBm3dl/HEJa6RWUDsCOJc+NmjjbnA== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1632257253; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=NS7GepCcUHoP5wSSw8gWLs1osDoZSSj2vRQRmjM4CNEhQiAfg/zUTY31U9MA1Ko7Jz96g3 UPZS6xiTxwYP+VMTiCHkAEvP2PvNJuvt4+EDxXI+mp/USjLNBz330IaeH8Y+iT1CT1pRiZ z6RYcTa0jJgVZY55FEJqpRqS5Q22iHOeT1AvrsxgIpVOrXi/OlPhqWNhTRfKNgt72wxU4n SQ0E5PqvmWqMqQZ9cIB/2JiK8+AdKzrBLk60HJqMHmyB4Q27L1J0qEZJ2I0j7XbvygM9Ce 7VxuT+tbAnFik/A6WKergMFYZ0i3IQpfyTDQQw9LQG4ie1160T9qwK5EDRSaxQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=MRdRmOhs; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -1.29 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=MRdRmOhs; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=gmail.com (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 7E8E92CB50 X-Spam-Score: -1.29 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: R/ub5kHPsdxy Ludovic Court=C3=A8s writes: > Hello Guix! > > I and others are often disappointed (or angry!) when looking at the > weaknesses of the most popular software deployment tools. I felt that > acutely after packaging PyTorch last month and felt the need to look > more closely at what others are doing and to document our motivation, > having put so much sweat in all these packages: > > https://hpc.guix.info/blog/2021/09/whats-in-a-package/ > > It=E2=80=99s probably no news to people here, but the packaging approach = has a > direct impact on verifiability, and thus on security and transparency, > as expected from a scientific process. The idea is to explain all that > looking at the contents of packages, in particular for pip and CONDA. > > Feel free to share with non-Guix people and to comment! > > Ludo=E2=80=99. I appreciate this post very much. Setting aside questions of freedom, and s= ecurity -- both of which I value a lot -- the main benefit of Guix has, for= me, been: simplicity (but not always ease)[1]. I.e., when trying to achiev= e a goal, it is a pain to package things that aren't yet packaged, but what= I get in return are sane environments, deployments, and meta-data about al= l of these. This is perhaps a rehash of the "worse is better"[2] conversation, but I of= ten struggle with deciding whether to do things the "fast" way, or the "cor= rect" way. I think when your path is clear, the correct way will get you fa= rther, faster. But when you're doing experiments, or exploratory programmin= g, being bogged down with the "correct" way of doing things (i.e. Guix pack= ages) might take a lot of time for no benefit. E.g. maybe you end up packag= ing a cluster of things that you find out don't work out for you. Of course= the challenge is: if you choose the fast way, and it works out, do you got= back to do it the correct way so that you're on sound footing? Bringing this back to Guix, and maybe the GNU philosophy, it has been very = helpful for me to be able to leverage the flexibility of Guix to occasional= ly do things the "fast" way, perhaps by packaging a binary. Paradoxically, = it has allowed me to stay within the Guix and free software ecosystem. In m= y opinion, flexibility is key to growing the ecosystem and community, and I= would encourage Guix as a project to take every opportunity to give the us= er options. [1] - https://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy/ [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worse_is_better --=20 Katherine