From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp12.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id 4KPjC4XF8mJRUgEAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 09 Aug 2022 22:37:25 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp12.migadu.com with LMTPS id cGq/C4XF8mIEagAAauVa8A (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 09 Aug 2022 22:37:25 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E14BD12A89 for ; Tue, 9 Aug 2022 22:37:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:48686 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oLVye-0000YX-19 for larch@yhetil.org; Tue, 09 Aug 2022 16:37:24 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:58048) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oLVyT-0000Y9-EJ for help-guix@gnu.org; Tue, 09 Aug 2022 16:37:13 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:46838) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oLVyS-0001Z1-SH; Tue, 09 Aug 2022 16:37:12 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-Version:In-Reply-To:Date:References:Subject:To: From; bh=/brr6CHNdcKYAhwWjpMPurCfHfxWHYq/7vHxZUalPg8=; b=o+zmLfBjDp4XxkPefU0f cCcpNSPVxcG3N0DDUwCMDSXcrVt3meOl3jytxmhEHQRZCV4N8G5u2giYPrly1JqdjZ5ITeGg+6Cf7 cimo8C5Vx2QUsu9yO4HimhdkebGHSpPe3UsbaukBxxgbI+XNEEiO08ZB+hvRrsYxEMIVYzrv9+cXZ RZA43xCW8WwSaUZFQZNW7qXxDOx5wUzEu+Z7b6+/v18sYL9aKXHdUQfNq8aY7Rm+3IRbZNlf/6r8O Xsr/sILQJZdjUNO15zfjuVG9C96pqNYWD3v4FTv0sg20QWrbbntNziGte14dgf4vQF+YOZ2exo08S XjrORgwGLHuFQQ==; Received: from 91-160-117-201.subs.proxad.net ([91.160.117.201]:53854 helo=ribbon) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oLVyS-0008Eh-F1; Tue, 09 Aug 2022 16:37:12 -0400 From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= To: Phil Cc: Benjamin Slade , Yasuaki Kudo , Olivier Dion , help-guix@gnu.org Subject: Re: Enterprise Guix Hosting? References: <87edy2a7xb.fsf@beadling.co.uk> <961019EF-219A-4DAE-BED3-4DCB7BC386B8@yasuaki.com> <0c1f853a-f613-4ad2-9eda-05940cee5a23@gmail.com> <87bkt5a6mi.fsf@beadling.co.uk> X-URL: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ X-Revolutionary-Date: Duodi 22 Thermidor an 230 de la =?utf-8?Q?R=C3=A9vol?= =?utf-8?Q?ution=2C?= jour du =?utf-8?Q?C=C3=A2prier?= X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x090B11993D9AEBB5 X-PGP-Key: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ludovic.asc X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3CE4 6455 8A84 FDC6 9DB4 0CFB 090B 1199 3D9A EBB5 X-OS: x86_64-pc-linux-gnu Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2022 22:37:10 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87bkt5a6mi.fsf@beadling.co.uk> (phil@beadling.co.uk's message of "Sun, 31 Jul 2022 12:01:09 +0100") Message-ID: <875yj140i1.fsf@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.1 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: help-guix@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-guix-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Help-Guix" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1660077444; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=/brr6CHNdcKYAhwWjpMPurCfHfxWHYq/7vHxZUalPg8=; b=dLg6wNl1wUwJDpTiauxS0IwSyVakXCS7KtCOKWABRr3iosCSmUR7JHum8g6eTWtiwHlKSI AkRmvH9KuZnxkvRicHSWVPcTw5tGs86RYAANdAlDArnCb5L08XeG2ssNOdCryHoIBkUPKR SIlOy5tfn2+JnXJznpLFn51kZWbAUh3eo983Ai5rsJajrSVymfTsuGFNfHka8MYarvPzrD t3ZKtmiwgTyR14fHbL1E1fF7DSbiA3GYYyPTIjA5T/ZZokbcD6omBGp1J3djldjoWQOaZK nbAin/5G6y7/4ptBphvaXpHmJjoPboPSVEleOfPgSHczobBCndnZ4htpU53a1A== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1660077444; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=gS9fIINJ2YpLsTrST4k48uHwU4IOflBhoyxyU9W5Xja70dNcwl4gYPNk9Q9rEbaxn+h3pl kszFcuj1lS74UEbIKqEvVX49rHkQQfGrg1kiN4gVua/ZcUL9pzzJhi6yaTN87NZzZ5mAaL IPE+CjzYh7MW/sTz8v+gCHH0RvAJWl1KlRmYO8tJO/QiYaHUr76QwbqAP7a4cRChYSSam+ mYzBuXqlB7PfTs0AygHvCYTN4/HJoVoljWjZWch+phal1H9Q4ThNQWFBOhM6vXiUc7HP39 DJmRoxi1KPUnSzxVhhEKvYgREa/YYQdT6mMonSB83D6Y16cuf9NEnHQxZ2GKgw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gnu.org header.s=fencepost-gnu-org header.b=o+zmLfBj; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "help-guix-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="help-guix-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -4.09 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gnu.org header.s=fencepost-gnu-org header.b=o+zmLfBj; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "help-guix-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="help-guix-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: E14BD12A89 X-Spam-Score: -4.09 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: a/jYyvlTO7ZQ Hi Phil, Phil skribis: > My own experience is that whilst it doesn't require a PhD to setup Guix > for the enterprise, it is a non-trivial journey, and it does require > a fair amount of time and effort to create something that regular > developers/scientists (i.e. non-Guix converts who just want to get on wit= h their > day-jobs) accept is as good or better than regular tooling they are used > to. There's certainly a barrier to entry for people who don't want to > do a deep-dive and just want tooling to support them in their professional > role, without them having to think about it too much. > > Upselling the real benefits of Guix like rollbacks, profiles, perfectly > reproducable builds, swapping one dependency for another - even in a > scientific/tech-savvy company with lots of PhDs took a bit of persuading > from me. Even now I think our company is only using perhaps 30% of the > true power of Guix. Making all that power accessible to people who just > want to get on with their jobs in an easy, intuitive way is a challenge > I'm continuously trying to address. I also hope things like PantherX > might help bridge the gap in the near future!=20 >From your experience, would you say that persuading was hard primarily because Guix was unknown (to them), or because getting started is difficult? Personally I think we need to make Guix approachable to a wide audience, meaning not just developers=E2=80=94that goes beyond your target audience, = let=E2=80=99s be ambitious! I=E2=80=99d like to think that =E2=80=98guix install=E2=80= =99, =E2=80=98guix shell=E2=80=99, and the likes have a rather low barrier to entry to someone who=E2=80=99s use t= he command line before, but I=E2=80=99ve also seen newcomers confused because =E2=80=9Cenvironment variables are hard=E2=80=9D and get in the way. Are there any takeaways from your experience in terms of UX/UI improvements we could work on? Thanks, Ludo=E2=80=99.