Installation: Load non-free wifi firmware (iwlwifi)

Installation: Load non-free wifi firmware (iwlwifi)

[Pierre Neidhardt]

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This was posted before:

    https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-guix/2017-01/msg00041.html

Unfortunately, I'm not able to acquire a wifi dongle at the moment.
As far as I understand, linux-libre turns off the ability to load
non-free firmware.  Why is it so?

Is it possible to re-enable the feature?
If not, are there other ways around the issue?

-- 
Pierre Neidhardt

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Re: Installation: Load non-free wifi firmware (iwlwifi)

[Pierre Neidhardt]

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An idea crossed my mind: from a foreign distribution with Guix
installed, run

     guix system init /mnt/etc/config.scm /mnt

The documentation tells us that's not enough though:

> With the target partitions ready and the target root mounted on ‘/mnt’,
> we’re ready to go.  First, run:
>
>      herd start cow-store /mnt
>
>    This makes ‘/gnu/store’ copy-on-write, such that packages added to it
> during the installation phase are written to the target disk on ‘/mnt’
> rather than kept in memory.  This is necessary because the first phase
> of the ‘guix system init’ command (see below) entails downloads or
> builds to ‘/gnu/store’ which, initially, is an in-memory file system.

Is there a simple way to do this without `herd'?

-- 
Pierre Neidhardt

Do you think that illiterate people get the full effect of alphabet soup?

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Re: Installation: Load non-free wifi firmware (iwlwifi)

[Adonay Felipe Nogueira]

> As far as I understand, linux-libre turns off the ability to load
> non-free firmware.  Why is it so?

It's a bug in the Linux kernel itself, caused by how it actually looks
and loads stuff. See the reply given by Alexandre Oliva ([1]).

[1] <http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/gnu-linux-libre/2018-01/msg00032.html>.

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Re: Installation: Load non-free wifi firmware (iwlwifi)

[Carlo Zancanaro]

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Hey Pierre,

On Fri, Mar 02 2018, Pierre Neidhardt wrote:
> An idea crossed my mind: from a foreign distribution with Guix
> installed, run
>
>      guix system init /mnt/etc/config.scm /mnt
>
> [...]
>
> Is there a simple way to do this without `herd'?

There is! I followed the vague instructions in this message to 
convert my debian installation to a GuixSD installation and it 
(broadly speaking) worked.

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2017-04/msg00139.html

The trick is not to "init", but just to "reconfigure" into GuixSD. 
It feels a bit hacky, but it works.

Carlo

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Re: Installation: Load non-free wifi firmware (iwlwifi)

[Adonay Felipe Nogueira]

> Is it possible to re-enable the feature?
> If not, are there other ways around the issue?

I want to make it clear that the solution seems to be for you to acquire
a copy of the GNU Linux-libre scripts' source code, modify then so that
they don't block that specific non-free part, and then have these
modified scripts run over a copy of the source files for Linux.

-- 
- https://libreplanet.org/wiki/User:Adfeno
- Palestrante e consultor sobre /software/ livre (não confundir com
  gratis).
- "WhatsApp"? Ele não é livre. Por favor, veja formas de se comunicar
  instantaneamente comigo no endereço abaixo.
- Contato: https://libreplanet.org/wiki/User:Adfeno#vCard
- Arquivos comuns aceitos (apenas sem DRM): Corel Draw, Microsoft
  Office, MP3, MP4, WMA, WMV.
- Arquivos comuns aceitos e enviados: CSV, GNU Dia, GNU Emacs Org, GNU
  GIMP, Inkscape SVG, JPG, LibreOffice (padrão ODF), OGG, OPUS, PDF
  (apenas sem DRM), PNG, TXT, WEBM.

Re: Installation: Load non-free wifi firmware (iwlwifi)

[Clément Lassieur]

Pierre Neidhardt <ambrevar@gmail.com> writes:

> This was posted before:
>
>     https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-guix/2017-01/msg00041.html
>
> Unfortunately, I'm not able to acquire a wifi dongle at the moment.
> As far as I understand, linux-libre turns off the ability to load
> non-free firmware.  Why is it so?
>
> Is it possible to re-enable the feature?
> If not, are there other ways around the issue?

Hi Pierre,

Guix allows one to customize their packages through inheritance.  You
could create a custom linux package that inherits Guix's linux-libre,
with, say a differente source.  When linux-libre is updated, my-linux
would be updated as well, since it inherits linux-libre.  Thus, you
would have no maintainance to do.

(define-public my-linux
  (package
    (inherit linux-libre)
    (name "my-linux")
    (source ...)))

This custom package's definition needs to be within GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH.
See
https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/manual/html_node/Package-Modules.html#Package-Modules
for more information.

Clément

Re: Installation: Load non-free wifi firmware (iwlwifi)

[Pierre Neidhardt]

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Clément Lassieur <clement@lassieur.org> writes:

> Guix allows one to customize their packages through inheritance.  You
> could create a custom linux package that inherits Guix's linux-libre,
> with, say a differente source.  When linux-libre is updated, my-linux
> would be updated as well, since it inherits linux-libre.  Thus, you
> would have no maintainance to do.
>
> (define-public my-linux
>   (package
>     (inherit linux-libre)
>     (name "my-linux")
>     (source ...)))
>
> This custom package's definition needs to be within GUIX_PACKAGE_PATH.
> See
> https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/manual/html_node/Package-Modules.html#Package-Modules
> for more information.

Thanks for the tip, it seems to be working perfectly so far!

-- 
Pierre Neidhardt

No matter what other nations may say about the United States,
immigration is still the sincerest form of flattery.

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Re: Installation: Load non-free wifi firmware (iwlwifi)

[Chris Marusich]

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Hi Pierre,

Pierre Neidhardt <ambrevar@gmail.com> writes:

> linux-libre turns off the ability to load non-free firmware.  Why is
> it so?

I did a little bit of searching on the Internet, and it seems to me like
the reason why Linux-libre turns off the ability to load non-free
firmware is because the project does not want to induce you to use
non-free software.  For details, you may find this article and the
linked email threads interesting:

"The trouble with firmware" by Jake Edge, January 5, 2011
https://lwn.net/Articles/421680/

> Is it possible to re-enable the feature?

My understanding is that discussions about how to use non-free software
are not allowed on the GNU Guix email lists.  We're happy to help you
figure out how to solve your problems using free software, though!

> If not, are there other ways around the issue?

As Ludo mentioned elsewhere, using a dongle is one good option.  What
prevents you from using a dongle?

Another option is to find a system that respects your freedom and does
not require proprietary software to run.  I have a LibreBoot laptop I
purchased from MiniFree, and I love it!  I know that purchasing a
replacement computer that respects your freedom can seem like an
expensive option, but if you have the money, then it's an option:

https://minifree.org/

You may also be interested in looking at:

https://www.fsf.org/resources/hw/endorsement/respects-your-freedom

-- 
Chris

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Re: Installation: Load non-free wifi firmware (iwlwifi)

[Pierre Neidhardt]

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> "The trouble with firmware" by Jake Edge, January 5, 2011
> https://lwn.net/Articles/421680/

Interesting article.  I share similar views and I believe that making
proprietary code hard to proliferate is laudable.  See the GPL license.
I'm not completely convince how Linux-libre would work towards that end
though.

That said, I'm now stuck with an iwlwifi card and I have to live with
that much backward practices.

> As Ludo mentioned elsewhere, using a dongle is one good option.  What
> prevents you from using a dongle?

A nit, really, but I have an rather extreme life-style that pushes me to
travel as lightweight as possible.  A dongle is not much for sure, but
if I can I'd rather avoid it.

The other issue is that when I initially wrote this e-mail I could not
buy one and could not even order online.  Not a problem anymore for now.

Being even more picky, dongles have drawbacks:
- They occupy a USB port (I have only 2).
- They stick out... :p

> https://minifree.org/

Thanks for the link, I did not know about it.  Very nice initiative.

I am now running the ultra-thin laptop Xiaomi Air 13, which, beside the
non-free iwlwifi card, is an excellent piece of hardware in my opinion.
Way ahead of the offers on minifree.  I wish there would be something
similar and a 100% free.  Anyone aware of such a machine?

--
Pierre Neidhardt

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Re: Installation: Load non-free wifi firmware (iwlwifi)

[Hartmut Goebel]

Am 25.03.2018 um 07:34 schrieb Chris Marusich:
> As Ludo mentioned elsewhere, using a dongle is one good option.  What
> prevents you from using a dongle?

Why should I punish myself just for to says "Hey, I'm using only free
software"? This benefits nobody! [1]

Please don't get me wrong: free software is to be preferred and we
should push users and vendors towards it. But if for any reason one owns
a device demanding non-free firmware, using e.g. a dongle would not
benefit anybody.[1] The vendor already has the money. In contrary:
buying a dongle adds to environmental pollution and sweating in poor
countries.

The only thing we achieve is distracting users from free software since
it "doe not work".

[1] Given that you basically "trust" the non-free software. Bu if you
don't, you'll not going to use it anyway.

-- 
Regards
Hartmut Goebel

| Hartmut Goebel          | h.goebel@crazy-compilers.com               |
| www.crazy-compilers.com | compilers which you thought are impossible |

Re: Installation: Load non-free wifi firmware (iwlwifi)

[Marius Bakke]

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Chris Marusich <cmmarusich@gmail.com> writes:

> Hi Pierre,
>
> Pierre Neidhardt <ambrevar@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> linux-libre turns off the ability to load non-free firmware.  Why is
>> it so?
>
> I did a little bit of searching on the Internet, and it seems to me like
> the reason why Linux-libre turns off the ability to load non-free
> firmware is because the project does not want to induce you to use
> non-free software.

This is not true.  After all, you may wish to load a firmware that you
have developed yourself, but that is not possible either.  The problem
is a limitation of the kernel interface and/or the deblobbing script:

From an interview with Alexandre Oliva[0]:

"Indeed, I became aware that some users have got the idea that blocking
the loading of blobs is a feature. It's not; it's just a bug that's
quite difficult to fix. The decision on whether or not to use a piece of
software, be it Free or not, should belong to the users, and it's not
our intent to make that difficult."

[0] https://www.fsfla.org/ikiwiki/blogs/lxo/2013-11-08-linux-libre-interview-by-bruce-byfield.en.html

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Re: Installation: Load non-free wifi firmware (iwlwifi)

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hey Hartmut,

Hartmut Goebel <h.goebel@crazy-compilers.com> skribis:

> Am 25.03.2018 um 07:34 schrieb Chris Marusich:
>> As Ludo mentioned elsewhere, using a dongle is one good option.  What
>> prevents you from using a dongle?
>
> Why should I punish myself just for to says "Hey, I'm using only free
> software"? This benefits nobody! [1]

You can do what you want.  Guix as a project is committed to software
freedom, that’s our “contract” with our users, and I think giving them
individual and collective control over the software they use is highly
beneficial to them.

That said, we all prefer when hardware vendors do not make our lives
more difficult, no doubt!

Ludo’.

Re: Installation: Load non-free wifi firmware (iwlwifi)

[Mark H Weaver]

Hartmut Goebel <h.goebel@crazy-compilers.com> writes:

> Am 25.03.2018 um 07:34 schrieb Chris Marusich:
>> As Ludo mentioned elsewhere, using a dongle is one good option.  What
>> prevents you from using a dongle?
>
> Why should I punish myself just for to says "Hey, I'm using only free
> software"? This benefits nobody! [1]
>
> Please don't get me wrong: free software is to be preferred and we
> should push users and vendors towards it. But if for any reason one owns
> a device demanding non-free firmware, using e.g. a dongle would not
> benefit anybody.[1] The vendor already has the money. In contrary:
> buying a dongle adds to environmental pollution and sweating in poor
> countries.
>
> The only thing we achieve is distracting users from free software since
> it "doe not work".

I disagree.  We achieve something indispensible.  We make it far more
likely that the next time users purchase hardware, they will avoid
hardware that would require their operating system to include nonfree
software.  This creates incentives for the manufacturers to create
freedom-respecting hardware.

The alternative approach of including nonfree software in our OS, in
order to make non-freedom-respecting hardware "just work", makes this
problem invisible to most people, and thus creates no incentive for
users or manufacturers to change their behaviors at all.

This is not a small problem.  It's becoming increasingly difficult to
find any modern computer that can be operated without many megabytes of
nonfree software, in an age of ubiquitous surveillance that threatens
our democracies.  Please, we must not sweep this problem under the rug.

      Mark

Re: Installation: Load non-free wifi firmware (iwlwifi)

[Chris Marusich]

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Marius Bakke <mbakke@fastmail.com> writes:

> Chris Marusich <cmmarusich@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Hi Pierre,
>>
>> Pierre Neidhardt <ambrevar@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> linux-libre turns off the ability to load non-free firmware.  Why is
>>> it so?
>>
>> I did a little bit of searching on the Internet, and it seems to me like
>> the reason why Linux-libre turns off the ability to load non-free
>> firmware is because the project does not want to induce you to use
>> non-free software.
>
> This is not true.  After all, you may wish to load a firmware that you
> have developed yourself, but that is not possible either.  The problem
> is a limitation of the kernel interface and/or the deblobbing script:
>
> From an interview with Alexandre Oliva[0]:
>
> "Indeed, I became aware that some users have got the idea that blocking
> the loading of blobs is a feature. It's not; it's just a bug that's
> quite difficult to fix. The decision on whether or not to use a piece of
> software, be it Free or not, should belong to the users, and it's not
> our intent to make that difficult."
>
> [0] https://www.fsfla.org/ikiwiki/blogs/lxo/2013-11-08-linux-libre-interview-by-bruce-byfield.en.html

Thank you for correcting my understanding!  I read the interview you
linked, as well as the original email thread referenced by the LWN
article [1].  My understanding is now that Linux-libre wants both (1) to
avoid inducing users to install non-free firmware (e.g. even logging the
non-free firmware name is something they would consider to be "inducing"
the user to install the non-free firmware), and (2) to allow users to
install whatever firmware they want, regardless of whether it is free or
non-free firmware.  However, due to the way the kernel Linux loads
firmware combined with the way that Linux-libre mangles the non-free
firmware identifiers to accomplish (1), users of Linux-libre currently
need to go through the extra effort of modifying the Linux-libre source
code (which they are free to do) if they want to load non-free firmware
(or firmware they have built themselves but have chosen not to share).

It is good to know that the Linux-libre project intends to allow users
to do whatever they want with the kernel.  I appreciate you taking the
time to clarify this for me!

Footnotes: 
[1]  https://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/gnu-linux-libre/2010-12/msg00022.html

-- 
Chris

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Re: Installation: Load non-free wifi firmware (iwlwifi)

[Hartmut Goebel]

Am 28.03.2018 um 00:05 schrieb Mark H Weaver:
> I disagree.  We achieve something indispensible.  We make it far more
> likely that the next time users purchase hardware, they will avoid
> hardware that would require their operating system to include nonfree
> software.  This creates incentives for the manufacturers to create
> freedom-respecting hardware.

I disagree. Your are assuming somebody already convinced on free
software. This might work for these.

I assume somebody who needs to be convinced that there are alternatives
to what they are used to (Windows, macos). These people will not buy a
new device for testing GNU/Linux or GuixSD, but use the one they already
own. They except GNU/Linux to work! It not, they will be scared off -
and it will be even harder to convince them for another try.

The worm must be tasty to the fish, not the fisherman.

If you want to change the world, you will fail when trying to enforce
the big bang. But you will win by making people taking small steps,
learning, becoming confident. If you want someone to become vegan, first
make her/she reducing the meat consumption, make her/him living
vegetarian, an then vegan. This takes long, but even the first step is a
change towards your aim.

-- 
Regards
Hartmut Goebel

| Hartmut Goebel          | h.goebel@crazy-compilers.com               |
| www.crazy-compilers.com | compilers which you thought are impossible |

Librem (was: Installation: Load non-free wifi firmware (iwlwifi))

[Pierre Neidhardt]

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Chris Marusich <cmmarusich@gmail.com> writes:

> Another option is to find a system that respects your freedom and does
> not require proprietary software to run.  I have a LibreBoot laptop I
> purchased from MiniFree, and I love it!  I know that purchasing a
> replacement computer that respects your freedom can seem like an
> expensive option, but if you have the money, then it's an option:
>
> https://minifree.org/
>
> You may also be interested in looking at:
>
> https://www.fsf.org/resources/hw/endorsement/respects-your-freedom

How does it compare to Purism?

	https://puri.sm/products/

Their Librem 13 looks very attractive indeed!  Compared to my Xiaomi Air
13", it's seems to be a bit better while also more expansive, but I
suppose it's the price to pay for a good cause! :)

Any Librem user out there?

-- 
Pierre Neidhardt

A small town that cannot support one lawyer can always support two.

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Re: Librem

[Joshua Branson]

Pierre Neidhardt <ambrevar@gmail.com> writes:

> Chris Marusich <cmmarusich@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Another option is to find a system that respects your freedom and does
>> not require proprietary software to run.  I have a LibreBoot laptop I
>> purchased from MiniFree, and I love it!  I know that purchasing a
>> replacement computer that respects your freedom can seem like an
>> expensive option, but if you have the money, then it's an option:
>>
>> https://minifree.org/
>>
>> You may also be interested in looking at:
>>
>> https://www.fsf.org/resources/hw/endorsement/respects-your-freedom
>
> How does it compare to Purism?

I believe that minifree sells products that Richard Stallman would
purchase.  Purism is pretty close to something that Stallman would
purchase, but I believe there may be some lingering issues with Intel's
FSP that would prevent Stallman from purchasing a Purism.  You can read
a bit more of it here:  https://puri.sm/posts/measuring-the-intel-me-to-create-a-more-secure-computer/

However, I would argue that currently, Purism is probably the best
company working on making a modern and freedom respecting computing
device.  EOMA68 is another contender. https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop

>
> 	https://puri.sm/products/
>
> Their Librem 13 looks very attractive indeed!  Compared to my Xiaomi Air
> 13", it's seems to be a bit better while also more expansive, but I
> suppose it's the price to pay for a good cause! :)
>
> Any Librem user out there?

Re: Librem

[Chris Marusich]

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Joshua Branson <jbranso@fastmail.com> writes:

> Pierre Neidhardt <ambrevar@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Chris Marusich <cmmarusich@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> Another option is to find a system that respects your freedom and does
>>> not require proprietary software to run.  I have a LibreBoot laptop I
>>> purchased from MiniFree, and I love it!  I know that purchasing a
>>> replacement computer that respects your freedom can seem like an
>>> expensive option, but if you have the money, then it's an option:
>>>
>>> https://minifree.org/
>>>
>>> You may also be interested in looking at:
>>>
>>> https://www.fsf.org/resources/hw/endorsement/respects-your-freedom
>>
>> How does it compare to Purism?
>
> I believe that minifree sells products that Richard Stallman would
> purchase.  Purism is pretty close to something that Stallman would
> purchase, but I believe there may be some lingering issues with Intel's
> FSP that would prevent Stallman from purchasing a Purism.  You can read
> a bit more of it here:  https://puri.sm/posts/measuring-the-intel-me-to-create-a-more-secure-computer/
>
> However, I would argue that currently, Purism is probably the best
> company working on making a modern and freedom respecting computing
> device.  EOMA68 is another contender. https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop

What about the TALOSII?  It seems like another good option, if you can
afford it.

https://www.raptorcs.com/TALOSII/

It seems it was good enough to convince Libreboot to recommend it:

https://libreboot.org/news/talos.html

-- 
Chris

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Re: Librem

[Pierre Neidhardt]

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> https://www.raptorcs.com/TALOSII/

Nice!  I was originally referring to laptops only, but since I was
planning to look into desktops soon, so thanks for chiming in!

It's waaaaaay too expensive for my needs though ;) Would you also happen
to know of libre desktop hardware in the 500-1000€ price range?

--
Pierre Neidhardt

Marriage is low down, but you spend the rest of your life paying for it.
		-- Baskins

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Re: Librem (was: Installation: Load non-free wifi firmware (iwlwifi))

[Christopher Lemmer Webber]

Pierre Neidhardt writes:

> Chris Marusich <cmmarusich@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Another option is to find a system that respects your freedom and does
>> not require proprietary software to run.  I have a LibreBoot laptop I
>> purchased from MiniFree, and I love it!  I know that purchasing a
>> replacement computer that respects your freedom can seem like an
>> expensive option, but if you have the money, then it's an option:
>>
>> https://minifree.org/
>>
>> You may also be interested in looking at:
>>
>> https://www.fsf.org/resources/hw/endorsement/respects-your-freedom
>
> How does it compare to Purism?
>
> 	https://puri.sm/products/
>
> Their Librem 13 looks very attractive indeed!  Compared to my Xiaomi Air
> 13", it's seems to be a bit better while also more expansive, but I
> suppose it's the price to pay for a good cause! :)
>
> Any Librem user out there?

I'm running a LibreM 13.  GuixSD worked perfectly out of the box.  It's
nice to run GNOME again (after not having working OpenGL for ages on my
x200).  The hardware kill switches for wifi / camera / microphone are
also nice.  It's only been a week, but my impression so far is: if you
can afford to fork over the cash for it, it's worth it.

Re: Librem (was: Installation: Load non-free wifi firmware (iwlwifi))

[Pierre Neidhardt]

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Christopher Lemmer Webber <cwebber@dustycloud.org> writes:

>> Any Librem user out there?
>
> I'm running a LibreM 13.  GuixSD worked perfectly out of the box.  It's
> nice to run GNOME again (after not having working OpenGL for ages on my
> x200).  The hardware kill switches for wifi / camera / microphone are
> also nice.  It's only been a week, but my impression so far is: if you
> can afford to fork over the cash for it, it's worth it.

Thanks for the feedback!

-- 
Pierre Neidhardt

  Goes (Went) over like a lead balloon.

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Re: Librem

[Mike Gerwitz]

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On Fri, May 04, 2018 at 10:15:56 -0500, Christopher Lemmer Webber wrote:
> Pierre Neidhardt writes:
>
>> Chris Marusich <cmmarusich@gmail.com> writes:
>> Any Librem user out there?
>
> I'm running a LibreM 13.  GuixSD worked perfectly out of the box.  It's
> nice to run GNOME again (after not having working OpenGL for ages on my
> x200).  The hardware kill switches for wifi / camera / microphone are
> also nice.  It's only been a week, but my impression so far is: if you
> can afford to fork over the cash for it, it's worth it.

Awesome to hear; thanks for sharing.  You mentioned a more thorough
review in the future on the fediverse; do CC it here!

-- 
Mike Gerwitz
Free Software Hacker+Activist | GNU Maintainer & Volunteer
GPG: D6E9 B930 028A 6C38 F43B  2388 FEF6 3574 5E6F 6D05
https://mikegerwitz.com

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Re: Librem

[Joshua Branson]

Chris Marusich <cmmarusich@gmail.com> writes:

> Joshua Branson <jbranso@fastmail.com> writes:
>
>> Pierre Neidhardt <ambrevar@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> Chris Marusich <cmmarusich@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> Another option is to find a system that respects your freedom and does
>>>> not require proprietary software to run.  I have a LibreBoot laptop I
>>>> purchased from MiniFree, and I love it!  I know that purchasing a
>>>> replacement computer that respects your freedom can seem like an
>>>> expensive option, but if you have the money, then it's an option:
>>>>
>>>> https://minifree.org/
>>>>
>>>> You may also be interested in looking at:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.fsf.org/resources/hw/endorsement/respects-your-freedom
>>>
>>> How does it compare to Purism?
>>
>> I believe that minifree sells products that Richard Stallman would
>> purchase.  Purism is pretty close to something that Stallman would
>> purchase, but I believe there may be some lingering issues with Intel's
>> FSP that would prevent Stallman from purchasing a Purism.  You can read
>> a bit more of it here:  https://puri.sm/posts/measuring-the-intel-me-to-create-a-more-secure-computer/
>>
>> However, I would argue that currently, Purism is probably the best
>> company working on making a modern and freedom respecting computing
>> device.  EOMA68 is another contender. https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68/micro-desktop
>
> What about the TALOSII?  It seems like another good option, if you can
> afford it.
>
> https://www.raptorcs.com/TALOSII/

Thanks for the reminder.  I had forgotten about them!  I suppose is a
year or two SiFive might be a good contender too.

>
> It seems it was good enough to convince Libreboot to recommend it:
>
> https://libreboot.org/news/talos.html

Re: Librem

[Chris Marusich]

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Pierre Neidhardt <ambrevar@gmail.com> writes:

>> https://www.raptorcs.com/TALOSII/
>
> Nice!  I was originally referring to laptops only, but since I was
> planning to look into desktops soon, so thanks for chiming in!
>
> It's waaaaaay too expensive for my needs though ;) Would you also happen
> to know of libre desktop hardware in the 500-1000€ price range?

It's true that the TALOSII costs more than your average consumer-grade
desktop.  However, I like the fact that they seem to put a strong focus
on empowering the desktop owner to control their own computing by
freeing as much software as possible.  For example, they use OpenBMC,
and a lot of the firmware used in the system is apparently available as
free software:

https://git.raptorcs.com/git/

But it is expensive.  :-) I haven't bought one yet, myself.  Depending
on your needs, I've heard you can put together a pretty good Libreboot
desktop system for between 500 and 1000 US dollars, if you order and
assemble the parts yourself.  For me, "pretty good" means about 16 GiB
of RAM, 8 CPU cores, and an SSD, since I'm mainly interested in generic
development work (need those cores to build stuff in parallel!).  But I
haven't tried assembling my own Libreboot desktop yet, either.  I would
love to hear more from people who have!

For a Libreboot-enabled system, you might also consider asking the
Libreboot IRC chat room for help (last I heard, their email list was not
working).  I'm sure they can make some good recommendations!

-- 
Chris

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Re: Librem

[Nils Gillmann]

Chris Marusich transcribed 2.5K bytes:
> Pierre Neidhardt <ambrevar@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> >> https://www.raptorcs.com/TALOSII/
> >
> > Nice!  I was originally referring to laptops only, but since I was
> > planning to look into desktops soon, so thanks for chiming in!
> >
> > It's waaaaaay too expensive for my needs though ;) Would you also happen
> > to know of libre desktop hardware in the 500-1000€ price range?
> 
> It's true that the TALOSII costs more than your average consumer-grade
> desktop.  However, I like the fact that they seem to put a strong focus
> on empowering the desktop owner to control their own computing by
> freeing as much software as possible.  For example, they use OpenBMC,
> and a lot of the firmware used in the system is apparently available as
> free software:
> 
> https://git.raptorcs.com/git/
> 
> But it is expensive.  :-) I haven't bought one yet, myself.  Depending
> on your needs, I've heard you can put together a pretty good Libreboot
> desktop system for between 500 and 1000 US dollars, if you order and
> assemble the parts yourself.

The coreboot systems I have, and the small amount of the libreboot systems,
range between 100 Euro and 250 Euro (excluding the ~100? Euro I paid for the
flashing equipment).

> For me, "pretty good" means about 16 GiB
> of RAM, 8 CPU cores, and an SSD, since I'm mainly interested in generic
> development work (need those cores to build stuff in parallel!).  But I
> haven't tried assembling my own Libreboot desktop yet, either.  I would
> love to hear more from people who have!
> 
> For a Libreboot-enabled system, you might also consider asking the
> Libreboot IRC chat room for help (last I heard, their email list was not
> working).  I'm sure they can make some good recommendations!
> 
> -- 
> Chris