advanced?

advanced?

[Simon Josefsson via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1144 bytes --]

Hi

I find use of the term 'advanced' wrt Guix confusing and even mildly
excluding, even though it is wide-spread.  What is advanced about Guix?
Can I use it even if I'm not an advanced user?  What do others think?
Is there some historical background for this description of Guix?

How about the attached patch to merely drop this term in some place?

I would happily agree that Guix supports and encourages advanced
features.  But that is not exactly the same as saying Guix itself is
advanced.  If we want to use the term, I think it would be better to
rephrase things as 'Guix supports advanced features such as X, Y and Z'
if we really want to drive home that we are advanced.

I would prefer to use a basic or even simple operating system, and I'd
like to think Guix can be that for me, but maybe everyone has different
preferences, so maybe it doesn't really have to say anything.

(Or we could re-claim a variant of Debian's old slogan 'Guix - a free
universal operating system' but that may be controversial...)

The patch is meant as food for thought as I'm sure I'm missing
something, and it may be a language/cultural thing.

/Simon

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1.2: 0001-website-Reduce-use-of-advanced-term.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-diff, Size: 2626 bytes --]

From aac8f6d1fb382b9f9120b7cd51dc80e8ef07cc03 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org>
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2022 22:35:15 +0100
Subject: [PATCH] website: Reduce use of 'advanced' term.

---
 website/apps/base/templates/about.scm | 4 ++--
 website/apps/base/templates/home.scm  | 6 +++---
 2 files changed, 5 insertions(+), 5 deletions(-)

diff --git a/website/apps/base/templates/about.scm b/website/apps/base/templates/about.scm
index 9e2d252..1cf2f65 100644
--- a/website/apps/base/templates/about.scm
+++ b/website/apps/base/templates/about.scm
@@ -16,7 +16,7 @@
   (theme
    #:title (C_ "webpage title" '("About"))
    #:description
-   (G_ "Guix is an advanced distribution of the GNU operating system.
+   (G_ "Guix is a distribution of the GNU operating system.
     Guix is technology that respects the freedom of computer users.
     You are free to run the system for any purpose, study how it
     works, improve it, and share it with the whole world.")
@@ -45,7 +45,7 @@ system|GNU Hurd|GNU Guix package manager") #\|)
 
       ,(G_
         `(p
-          "Guix System is an advanced distribution of the "
+          "Guix System is a distribution of the "
           ,(G_ `(a (@ (href ,(gnu-url))) "GNU operating system"))
           ".  It uses the "
           ,(G_ `(a (@ (href ,(gnu-url "software/linux-libre"))) "Linux-libre"))
diff --git a/website/apps/base/templates/home.scm b/website/apps/base/templates/home.scm
index 7b72da8..8a0bccd 100644
--- a/website/apps/base/templates/home.scm
+++ b/website/apps/base/templates/home.scm
@@ -18,9 +18,9 @@
   "Return the Home page in SHTML using the data in CONTEXT."
   (theme
    #:title (C_ "webpage title"
-               '("GNU's advanced distro and transactional package manager"))
+               '("GNU Guix transactional package manager and distribution"))
    #:description
-   (G_ "Guix is an advanced distribution of the GNU operating system.
+   (G_ "Guix is a distribution of the GNU operating system.
    Guix is technology that respects the freedom of computer users.
    You are free to run the system for any purpose, study how it
    works, improve it, and share it with the whole world.")
@@ -45,7 +45,7 @@ management|Reproducibility") #\|)
        ,(G_
          `(li
            ,(G_ `(b "Liberating."))
-           " Guix is an advanced distribution of the "
+           " Guix is a distribution of the "
            ,(G_ (link-yellow
                  #:label "GNU operating system"
                  #:url (gnu-url "gnu/about-gnu.html")))
-- 
2.30.2


[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 255 bytes --]

Re: advanced?

[Liliana Marie Prikler]

Hi Simon,

Am Samstag, dem 26.11.2022 um 22:47 +0100 schrieb Simon Josefsson via
Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.:
> Hi
> 
> I find use of the term 'advanced' wrt Guix confusing and even mildly
> excluding, even though it is wide-spread.  What is advanced about
> Guix?
Guix is advanced – or perhaps more accurately revolutionary – in a
cultural sense.  Other well-known GNU distributions take an already
established non-GNU distribution and remove software that do not
respect user freedom.  See [1]: 5 out of 8 GNU distributions are "based
on" other distros.

Guix does not inherit any of that, it has its own way of describing
packages as well as its own way of describing anything else that goes
into an operating system.  You may see similarity with Nix mentioned
from time to time on social media and elsewhere, but that really is
just a shallow lake under a huge castle.

> Can I use it even if I'm not an advanced user?  
Probably maybe.  Whether or not you're an advanced user doesn't really
have any weight in there, but to get the "true" experience of a free
operating system, you do need the right hardware.  "Advanced" users are
more likely to pick their parts correctly given the existing
recommendations, but that's knowledge that can be achieved through
trial and error.

> What do others think?
About you using Guix user even though your not a "power" user?  Not
much, really.  We'll be happy to solve problems if they arise both in
the IRC and on help-guix@gnu.org

As for people, who do not use or maybe haven't even heard of Guix, I do
think a fair amount of them would treat you as though you announced
that you're vegan at some barbecue if you told them that you're going
to use or are already using a completely free, declarative operating
system.  

> Is there some historical background for this description of Guix?
Guix is historically very avant-garde, also with its reduction of the
bootstrap seed based on Mes, or its bootstrapping of the Java ecosystem
and other parts of the software world.

> How about the attached patch to merely drop this term in some place?
I don't think dropping it would be a good idea.  For one, it does have
an actual meaning as described above, but also, it evokes a feeling
that Guix is something capable of doing "real world user stuff" and not
just a neat toy.  And we definitely want to be in the former category.

> I would happily agree that Guix supports and encourages advanced
> features.  But that is not exactly the same as saying Guix itself is
> advanced.  If we want to use the term, I think it would be better to
> rephrase things as 'Guix supports advanced features such as X, Y and
> Z' if we really want to drive home that we are advanced.
It's not that Guix "supports" advanced features.  Guix itself is an
advanced way of doing the things Guix does, namely package management,
system management, container/vm spawning, ...

> I would prefer to use a basic or even simple operating system, and
> I'd like to think Guix can be that for me, but maybe everyone has
> different preferences, so maybe it doesn't really have to say
> anything.
Guix is simple, but basic only in that it breaks basically every
existing tradition before it.  Depending on your actual needs – e.g.
small disk footprint – there might be some that we are not going to
satisfy, but you're welcome to try and see if it fits regardless.


Hope that helps.

Cheers,
Liliana

[1] https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html

Re: advanced?

[zimoun]

Hi Simon,

On Sat, 26 Nov 2022 at 22:47, Simon Josefsson via "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." <guix-devel@gnu.org> wrote:

> The patch is meant as food for thought as I'm sure I'm missing
> something, and it may be a language/cultural thing.

I am not native-english.  The dictionary says:

 1. An advanced system, method, or design is modern and has been developed
    from an earlier version of the same thing.

 2. Something that is at an advanced stage or level is at a late stage of
    development.

 3. An advanced student has already learned the basic facts of a subject
    and is doing more difficult work. An advanced course of study is
    designed for such students.  

IIUC, you are understanding “advanced” as #3 when it can also be
understood as #1 or #2.

Well, I do not have an opinion about the term “advanced” for Guix.  For
sure, it seems worth to underline that the concepts are not as usual
distro. :-)


Cheers,
simon

Re: advanced?

[Ryan Prior]

On Saturday, November 26th, 2022 at 9:47 PM, Simon Josefsson via "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." <guix-devel@gnu.org> wrote:

> I find use of the term 'advanced' wrt Guix confusing and even mildly excluding, even though it is wide-spread. [...] Can I use it even if I'm not an advanced user? What do others think?


I'll offer a perspective as a native English speaker who reads and writes a lot about software.

tl;dr: the word "advanced" can be offputting and give an exclusive vibe, because of the ways it is typically used in idiomatic English prose written about software. But to a small fraction of people it is the opposite, it is welcoming and inclusive.

In software marketing, if a product or solution is described as "advanced," that typically communicates that it considers and caters to demanding use-cases which are beyond what most people face. If you want to reach people who are struggling with distributed system uptime, describing an "advanced clustering solution" could be a good way to connect, for example.

In software documentation and configuration, "advanced" is used as shorthand for "this is safe to ignore." Less-technical users feel reassured that they can skip an "advanced" section entirely, never read it, and not miss anything that would be relevant to them. A technical user seeing "advanced" knows that this might be interesting to them, but maybe not on the first read-through before they are familiar with high level concepts; it's safe to skip for now. Many applications have a section of their settings menu labeled "advanced" - this too is a shorthand for "safe to ignore." Many users will never even glance at the advanced settings of any application they use, and even power users will often wait until they have some experience with an application before diving into advanced settings.

To a small subset of hackers and techies, "advanced" is a welcome-word: it says, this is something pithy that we included for those who dare to demand flexibility and utility. For those users, an "advanced" software product is likely to be more interesting even if it's hard to use, and they dive into "advanced" configurations immediately in case there's interesting insights about software internals and capabilities in there. This is wholesome and commendable behavior, but IMO folks who behave this way should consider that they are a fraction of one percent and their experience of software is in many ways unrelatable to that of their comrades.

Re: advanced?

[Vagrant Cascadian]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2084 bytes --]

On 2022-11-26, Simon Josefsson via "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." wrote:
> I find use of the term 'advanced' wrt Guix confusing and even mildly
> excluding, even though it is wide-spread.  What is advanced about Guix?
> Can I use it even if I'm not an advanced user?  What do others think?
> Is there some historical background for this description of Guix?

Thanks for bringing this up!

It does seem consistent with the guix manual section on package synopsis
and descriptions:

  https://guix.gnu.org/en/manual/devel/en/guix.html#Synopses-and-Descriptions

  Please avoid marketing phrases such as “world-leading”,
  “industrial-strength”, and “next-generation”, and avoid superlatives
  like “the most advanced”—they are not helpful to users looking for a
  package and may even sound suspicious. Instead, try to be factual,
  mentioning use cases and features.

I'm just not sure what stating "advanced" up-front really adds or
improves a brief statement about what guix is...

Reading through your patch, it just seems like an extra word thrown in
hoping for the positive connotations and possibly dragging in some
negative ones (e.g. elitist, not for everybody).

It also makes me wonder if "advanced" will stand the test of
time. Someday Guix-style systems might just be status quo, and thus no
longer advanced. Guix of course will likely evolve over time... maybe it
will still hold qualities worthy of being called "advanced", maybe not.

Reminds me of when I used to work at a computer re-use and recycling
organization, and we would routingly get computers with stickers on them
proclaiming "Blazing fast 400MHz processor" and the likes. Marketing
phrases quickly loose context.


> If we want to use the term, I think it would be better to rephrase
> things as 'Guix supports advanced features such as X, Y and Z' if we
> really want to drive home that we are advanced.

This works for me... describe *why* it is advanced rather than just
proclaiming it.


live well,
  vagrant

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 227 bytes --]

Re: advanced?

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hello!

Vagrant Cascadian <vagrant@debian.org> skribis:

> On 2022-11-26, Simon Josefsson via "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." wrote:
>> I find use of the term 'advanced' wrt Guix confusing and even mildly
>> excluding, even though it is wide-spread.  What is advanced about Guix?
>> Can I use it even if I'm not an advanced user?  What do others think?
>> Is there some historical background for this description of Guix?
>
> Thanks for bringing this up!
>
> It does seem consistent with the guix manual section on package synopsis
> and descriptions:
>
>   https://guix.gnu.org/en/manual/devel/en/guix.html#Synopses-and-Descriptions

Indeed.  :-)  I’m fine with the patch Simon submitted and agree with the
rationale.

[...]

>> If we want to use the term, I think it would be better to rephrase
>> things as 'Guix supports advanced features such as X, Y and Z' if we
>> really want to drive home that we are advanced.
>
> This works for me... describe *why* it is advanced rather than just
> proclaiming it.

The second and third points (dependable and hackable) give an idea of
what makes it advanced, so maybe we don’t need to add much?

Or if we do want to explain more, then perhaps we need a list of
features that would also include things like Docker/VM image generation,
declarative home environments, etc.  But that’s broader topic.

Thanks,
Ludo’.

PS: For the record, the phrase “advanced distribution of the GNU system”
    was coined by RMS at a time where he insisted that this thing cannot
    be called “the GNU system”.  All this makes little sense, even less
    so today, but if you’re curious you may enjoy Andreas’ entertaining
    talk: https://10years.guix.gnu.org/video/ten-years-of-failures/

Re: advanced?

[Simon Josefsson via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1644 bytes --]

Thanks Liliana, zimoun, Ryan and Vagrant for feedback!

Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org> writes:

> Or if we do want to explain more, then perhaps we need a list of
> features that would also include things like Docker/VM image generation,
> declarative home environments, etc.  But that’s broader topic.

Yes, that makes sense.  I'm not the best person to summarize it, but
starting pointers if someone wants to take it further:

* Dedication to free software goals and the GNU community

* Shepherd init system written in Guile

* Declarative stateless system configurations

* Transactional upgrades and roll-backs

* Reproducible build environments

* Designed towards bootstrappable builds

Maybe this fits better directly in the Introduction section of the
manual?  https://guix.gnu.org/manual/en/html_node/Introduction.html

> PS: For the record, the phrase “advanced distribution of the GNU system”
>     was coined by RMS at a time where he insisted that this thing cannot
>     be called “the GNU system”.  All this makes little sense, even less
>     so today, but if you’re curious you may enjoy Andreas’ entertaining
>     talk: https://10years.guix.gnu.org/video/ten-years-of-failures/

Ah, thanks, the wording of that paragraph is more understandable now!  I
can see how that wording came about, and also how it clarify compared to
the GNU system.  I think this knowledge was the missing piece I didn't
have.  As an introduction to what Guix is for someone without earlier
understanding of GNU etc, I still believe that the word 'advanced' does
not contribute though.

/Simon

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 255 bytes --]

Re: advanced?

[Denis 'GNUtoo' Carikli]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2382 bytes --]

On Sun, 27 Nov 2022 10:35:13 -0800
Vagrant Cascadian <vagrant@debian.org> wrote:
> It also makes me wonder if "advanced" will stand the test of
> time. Someday Guix-style systems might just be status quo, and thus no
> longer advanced. Guix of course will likely evolve over time... maybe
> it will still hold qualities worthy of being called "advanced", [...]
Something interesting would be to convey what users need to know or
learn for using Guix. In "1.1 Managing Software the Guix Way" we
already have hints that it might require to know the command line and
scheme. Though maybe it could be clarified for less technical users.

For instance it "provides" [a command line interface], but that is not
clear that it's the only way to interact with some of Guix features.

If we compare Guix with other FSDG compliant distributions:
- Trisquel is usable by users that don't know the command
  line but less technical users might need a bit of help for upgrading
  from a version to another (in install parties for instance). Sometimes
  they just need somebody to be there just in case something goes wrong
  though.
- Parabola x86_64 can probably be used by users without command line
  knowledge (for a desktop/laptop usage) but the boot sometimes break,
  so less technical users also need to plan ahead and know how to
  reinstall it if needed (that could be done by having a separate home
  for instance). A server usage does require to know the command line
  and also to know how to edit configuration files (like Apache
  configuration file).
- Once installed, LibreCMC (and OpenWRT) are probably also relatively
  easy to configure for people that know what an IP address is, what is
  DHCP, what is an SSID, etc. Guix has the potential to be similar.
- Freedombox (available in PureOS, Debian, etc) looks way easier but it
  is also way less configurable.

Guix has the potential to have the same kind of balance between
easiness and empowerment/configurability than LibreCMC (if
graphical interfaces are written).

Making the current status more clear can probably help users. On my side
I've already taken that into account on the documentation I wrote on
FSDG compliant distributions on the Libreplanet wiki, but I'm not sure
how to improve the text in that manual section, or how to promote more
that information.

Denis.

[-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]

Re: advanced?

[zimoun]

Hi,

On Mon, 28 Nov 2022 at 15:44, Simon Josefsson via "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." <guix-devel@gnu.org> wrote:

> Yes, that makes sense.  I'm not the best person to summarize it, but
> starting pointers if someone wants to take it further:

Well, it is somehow part of,

    * Transactional upgrades and roll-backs
    * Reproducible build environments

I would also add Inferiors and Time-machine, especially working in
tandem with Software Heritage.  AFAIU, it is unique to be able to jump
to (almost) any point back in time and just rebuild (or almost), with
one command-line, whatever the state of the world (or almost).  It
pushes far beyond features such as https://snapshot.debian.org/ IMHO.

Cheers,
simon

Re: advanced?

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hi Simon and all,

Simon Josefsson via "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System
distribution." <guix-devel@gnu.org> skribis:

> From aac8f6d1fb382b9f9120b7cd51dc80e8ef07cc03 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
> From: Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org>
> Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2022 22:35:15 +0100
> Subject: [PATCH] website: Reduce use of 'advanced' term.
>
> ---
>  website/apps/base/templates/about.scm | 4 ++--
>  website/apps/base/templates/home.scm  | 6 +++---
>  2 files changed, 5 insertions(+), 5 deletions(-)

It’s been a month and it looks like there wasn’t any opposition to this
change, so I went ahead and pushed it.

Thanks,
Ludo’.

Re: advanced?

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hello,

(Cc: Luis, for the web site design.)

Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> skribis:

> Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> Or if we do want to explain more, then perhaps we need a list of
>> features that would also include things like Docker/VM image generation,
>> declarative home environments, etc.  But that’s broader topic.
>
> Yes, that makes sense.  I'm not the best person to summarize it, but
> starting pointers if someone wants to take it further:
>
> * Dedication to free software goals and the GNU community
>
> * Shepherd init system written in Guile
>
> * Declarative stateless system configurations
>
> * Transactional upgrades and roll-backs
>
> * Reproducible build environments
>
> * Designed towards bootstrappable builds
>
> Maybe this fits better directly in the Introduction section of the
> manual?  https://guix.gnu.org/manual/en/html_node/Introduction.html

I guess we should rework the “Introduction” and “Features” sections,
which were written in the early days.

The points you list above are a great starting point, and I guess that
would also be a good fit for the front page; currently there’s no
“feature list” there.  That old “Guix in action” video also ought to be
replaced.

Luis, do you have ideas as to how we could present things?

Thanks,
Ludo’.

Re: advanced?

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hey,

A heads-up for Julien and the translators:

Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org> skribis:

> Simon Josefsson via "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System
> distribution." <guix-devel@gnu.org> skribis:
>
>> From aac8f6d1fb382b9f9120b7cd51dc80e8ef07cc03 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
>> From: Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org>
>> Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2022 22:35:15 +0100
>> Subject: [PATCH] website: Reduce use of 'advanced' term.
>>
>> ---
>>  website/apps/base/templates/about.scm | 4 ++--
>>  website/apps/base/templates/home.scm  | 6 +++---
>>  2 files changed, 5 insertions(+), 5 deletions(-)
>
> It’s been a month and it looks like there wasn’t any opposition to this
> change, so I went ahead and pushed it.

Unsurprisingly, removing the one word invalidated all translations,
as can be seen at the top of the front page:

  <https://guix.gnu.org/fr/>

Ludo’.

Re: advanced?

[Julien Lepiller]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1084 bytes --]

Already fixed in weblate for French. Will push the update shortly :)

Le 9 janvier 2023 12:12:27 GMT+01:00, "Ludovic Courtès" <ludo@gnu.org> a écrit :
>Hey,
>
>A heads-up for Julien and the translators:
>
>Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org> skribis:
>
>> Simon Josefsson via "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System
>> distribution." <guix-devel@gnu.org> skribis:
>>
>>> From aac8f6d1fb382b9f9120b7cd51dc80e8ef07cc03 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
>>> From: Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org>
>>> Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2022 22:35:15 +0100
>>> Subject: [PATCH] website: Reduce use of 'advanced' term.
>>>
>>> ---
>>>  website/apps/base/templates/about.scm | 4 ++--
>>>  website/apps/base/templates/home.scm  | 6 +++---
>>>  2 files changed, 5 insertions(+), 5 deletions(-)
>>
>> It’s been a month and it looks like there wasn’t any opposition to this
>> change, so I went ahead and pushed it.
>
>Unsurprisingly, removing the one word invalidated all translations,
>as can be seen at the top of the front page:
>
>  <https://guix.gnu.org/fr/>
>
>Ludo’.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1660 bytes --]

Re: advanced?

[Simon Josefsson via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2185 bytes --]

Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org> writes:

> Hello,
>
> (Cc: Luis, for the web site design.)
>
> Simon Josefsson <simon@josefsson.org> skribis:
>
>> Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org> writes:
>>
>>> Or if we do want to explain more, then perhaps we need a list of
>>> features that would also include things like Docker/VM image generation,
>>> declarative home environments, etc.  But that’s broader topic.
>>
>> Yes, that makes sense.  I'm not the best person to summarize it, but
>> starting pointers if someone wants to take it further:
>>
>> * Dedication to free software goals and the GNU community
>>
>> * Shepherd init system written in Guile
>>
>> * Declarative stateless system configurations
>>
>> * Transactional upgrades and roll-backs
>>
>> * Reproducible build environments
>>
>> * Designed towards bootstrappable builds
>>
>> Maybe this fits better directly in the Introduction section of the
>> manual?  https://guix.gnu.org/manual/en/html_node/Introduction.html
>
> I guess we should rework the “Introduction” and “Features” sections,
> which were written in the early days.
>
> The points you list above are a great starting point, and I guess that
> would also be a good fit for the front page; currently there’s no
> “feature list” there.  That old “Guix in action” video also ought to be
> replaced.

Reflecting on the feature list, I think we should mention that Guix is a
_rolling_ distribution and package manager, and maybe explain what that
means.  I don't think this is clear from the web site or manual now, but
I may be missing it.

Perhaps the release and update model of Guix could use some dedicated
new documentation?  The relationship between the rolling master branch,
the core-updates branch, the security graft mechanism, the substitute
build servers and the versioned installer releases is not terribly clear
to me as a new user, and having an understanding of these concepts helps
to make contributions.  I have a feeling there may be more nuances that
are useful to know about that I'm not familiar with; for example, the
intended use of the version-X.Y.Z branches.

/Simon

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 255 bytes --]