website: say what Guix is at the very top

website: say what Guix is at the very top

[Ricardo Wurmus]

Hi Guix,

on the website it starts right away with a list of features:
“Liberating”, “Dependable”, and “Hackable”.  But what is this thing
called Guix?

We should add a very short paragraph above that list to say what Guix
and GuixSD are.

What do you think?

-- 
Ricardo

GPG: BCA6 89B6 3655 3801 C3C6  2150 197A 5888 235F ACAC
https://elephly.net

Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[Tobias Geerinckx-Rice]

Ricardo,

I don't know who wrote the current intro, but I think it's pretty good.
Have you got negative feedback from curious visitors?

Ricardo Wurmus wrote on 17/01/18 at 18:30:
> Hi Guix,
> 
> on the website it starts right away with a list of features:
> “Liberating”, “Dependable”, and “Hackable”.  But what is this thing
> called Guix?

It's not just a list of features. The current intro is:

  - Liberating. The Guix System Distribution (GuixSD) is an advanced
    distribution of the GNU operating system developed by the GNU
    Project—which respects the freedom of computer users.

  - Dependable. It comes with the GNU Guix package manager, which in
    addition to standard package management features, supports
    transactional upgrades and roll-backs, unprivileged package
    management, per-user profiles, and more.

  - Hackable. It provides Guile Scheme APIs, including high-level
    embedded domain-specific languages (EDSLs) to define packages and
    whole-system configurations.

I like the way it mixes description, features, and values without
getting lost in marketing-speak. It also breaks up the text into small
chunks, which is apparently mandatory on the 'Net.

That's not to say there's no room for improvement. Paragraph #1 in
particular might be a bit vague and verbose. But who's talking.

> We should add a very short paragraph above that list to say what Guix
> and GuixSD are.
>> What do you think?

Hm, what do you suggest?

Kind regards,

T G-R

Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[Ricardo Wurmus]

Hi Tobias,

> I don't know who wrote the current intro, but I think it's pretty good.
> Have you got negative feedback from curious visitors?

Unfortunately, I have.  The most common feedback is an expression of
confusion about the difference between GuixSD and Guix.

But to be fair: this email was not triggered by negative feedback, but
by my own failure to find a succint explanation of Guix on the home
page.  I had hoped to find a concise intro that I could send someone to
explain what this Guix thing is all about but none of the sentences on
the home page really did the job well enough.

I ended up opening the Introduction section of the manual and edited it
to reduce the number of words.

> It's not just a list of features. The current intro is:
>
>   - Liberating. The Guix System Distribution (GuixSD) is an advanced
>     distribution of the GNU operating system developed by the GNU
>     Project—which respects the freedom of computer users.
>
>   - Dependable. It comes with the GNU Guix package manager, which in
>     addition to standard package management features, supports
>     transactional upgrades and roll-backs, unprivileged package
>     management, per-user profiles, and more.
>
>   - Hackable. It provides Guile Scheme APIs, including high-level
>     embedded domain-specific languages (EDSLs) to define packages and
>     whole-system configurations.
>
> I like the way it mixes description, features, and values without
> getting lost in marketing-speak. It also breaks up the text into small
> chunks, which is apparently mandatory on the 'Net.

Yes, I’m not saying it’s poorly written.  I agree with all of the
positive things you wrote about the intro.

What I don’t like is that it comes across as a list of features (single
word after bullet) with further explanation of those features — but
that’s not what it is.  It’s not even a list of features for the same
thing!

>> We should add a very short paragraph above that list to say what Guix
>> and GuixSD are.
>>> What do you think?
>
> Hm, what do you suggest?

I suggest moving the GuixSD parts to a sub-page first.  What’s left on
the front-page would only be about Guix, the package manager.  This
means that the current first paragraph would disappear and would have to
be replaced.

The current second paragraph “Dependable…” could be split up such that
we can elaborate a little more about the novel features of Guix.  Right
now it doesn’t real all *that* novel to me:

- “standard package management features”

- “transactional upgrades and roll-backs”: yum did that too, but in
  quite a different way than Guix.

- “unprivileged package management”: this deserves to be higher up

- “per-user profiles, and more”: ah, now it gets interesting, but the
  list is already too long, so we end immediately with “and more”.  Hmm.

I suggest to not even mention “standard package management features”.


Let’s look at the Conda intro.  There are many things I don’t like about
it, but there are some things we can learn from it:

    https://conda.io/docs/index.html

The first paragraph states:

    Conda is [a] package management system and environment management
    system that runs on Windows, macOS and Linux. Conda quickly
    installs, runs and updates packages and their dependencies. Conda
    easily creates, saves, loads and switches between environments on
    your local computer. […]

It then drifts off and talks about Python all the time, but these first
sentences clearly tell me what it does: package and environment
management, installing packages and dependencies,
creating/loading/switching between environments.

Guix does all this but with reproducibility at its core, yet our
introduction neither mentions reproducibility nor does it say anything
about environments.

--
Ricardo

GPG: BCA6 89B6 3655 3801 C3C6  2150 197A 5888 235F ACAC
https://elephly.net

Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[Tobias Geerinckx-Rice]

Ricardo,

Ricardo Wurmus wrote on 19/01/18 at 09:04:
>> I don't know who wrote the current intro, but I think it's pretty good.
>> Have you got negative feedback from curious visitors?
> 
> Unfortunately, I have.  The most common feedback is an expression of
> confusion about the difference between GuixSD and Guix.
> 
> But to be fair: this email was not triggered by negative feedback, but
> by my own failure to find a succint explanation of Guix on the home
> page.  I had hoped to find a concise intro that I could send someone to
> explain what this Guix thing is all about but none of the sentences on
> the home page really did the job well enough.
> 
> I ended up opening the Introduction section of the manual and edited it
> to reduce the number of words.

Thanks for your explanation here and elsewhere in this thread. I think I
share your view now.

Kind regards,

T G-R

Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[George myglc2 Clemmer]

On 01/17/2018 at 18:30 Ricardo Wurmus writes:

> Hi Guix,
>
> on the website it starts right away with a list of features:
> “Liberating”, “Dependable”, and “Hackable”.  But what is this thing
> called Guix?
>
> We should add a very short paragraph above that list to say what Guix
> and GuixSD are.
>
> What do you think?

Hi Ricardo,

Yes we should. We need a title too. But before we can get to those we
need a discussion.  Why?  Because the "Guix-verse" needs to grapple with
the surprisingly difficult challenge that every successful new
technology or software startup faces: Stepping away from technical
complexity and internal detail and describing what the product does and
the distinguishing features that will cause customers to buy it.

The first step is to accept that when a person selects our "product", no
matter how novel we feel it is, 99% of the time they are substituting it
for the product(s) they would otherwise buy.

While users may not pay money for our software, terms like customer,
buy, and substitute help us keep sight of the fact that our users do pay
for Guix by investing in discovering, understanding, installing and
using it instead of something else, free or otherwise. We must figure
out how to get our users to make those investments to be successful.

At the moment, if a potential user asks, "What is the Guix-verse?" We
might reasonably say: Well it has some parts ...

A) The GuixSD GNU/Linux distro, which is better than other distros
   because ... , and

B) The Guix package manager, which is cooler than other package
   managers because ... and by the way, Guix comes with GuixSD, and

C) A custom personal software bubble maker that comes with both A) or
   B), and

D) A puncher of custom QEMU VMs and Docker containers that comes with
   both A) and B) also, and

E) Source you can download to easily build your own custom personal
   packages, distros, bubbles, or punchers with total artistic control,
   or, you can, we hope, help us make guix better."

Listening to this our prospect might reasonably respond ...

1) TMI, I'm out of here! , or

2) Sounds like you have multiple personality disorder, or

3) Come back when you know what you are selling, or

4) I might be interested, maybe I will come back when I have more time,
   or

5) I think I understand. I may need part X.

Next they will ask us, "who is buying it?" To which we might reasonably
reply:

a) guile hackers with libreboot notebooks

c) emacs nuts

b) technodudes looking for the next whacky distro

d) HPC cluster managers that want to give users more freedom

e) Renegade Bioinformatic researchers attempting to get work done in
   spite of archaic CentOS releases

f) We are not actually sure who will buy it

So to summarize, we don't yet know how to describe what we are selling
or who will buy it. Our website reflects our confusion: We don't clearly
say there are multiple products and what they are. Instead of "selling"
the "mature" guix we park it at the bottom of the page. We focus on
GuixSD, never mentioning that it is in beta. We're not sure which
features are most important so we list them all.  The net effect is that
if someone says "Yes!" and clicks download they will next say, "HUH, I
didn't realize I have to choose between 2 things!  And why is the thing
they pitched hardest in beta!"

There are standard ways to help an organization like ours move toward
marketing clarity and sales success. Here are some:

The recommended approach is to pick a single product and focus all
energy on that. Then find people that are about to buy a something for
which they can substitute the product, and talk to them about it.

Our immediate challenge is that we seem to think we have at least two
products. We need to decide if we really have multiple products and, if
we do, how many and what they are. Then we must clearly separate them
and make it easy for potential customers to determine which one they
might use.

Then we need a "good sales message" for each product. The prototypical
sales message for a successful product follows an outline like this:

Introducing <product> - the first <product category> designed to <unique
way product attribute> that addresses the six key problems faced by <who
buys it?>:

1
2
3
4
5
6

I suggest that a sales message along these lines is the "very short
paragraph" you want.

- George

Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[Ricardo Wurmus]

Hi George,

> Our immediate challenge is that we seem to think we have at least two
> products. We need to decide if we really have multiple products and, if
> we do, how many and what they are. Then we must clearly separate them
> and make it easy for potential customers to determine which one they
> might use.

I agree.

It seems unfortunate to me that we have one shared website for GuixSD
and Guix.  As much as I love GuixSD, I think Guix is the main “product”
and GuixSD would need to be moved to a subsite.  That’s primarily
because GuixSD can be explained in terms of Guix, but explaining Guix as
“the package manager we use for GuixSD” seems less helpful.

We have many more use-cases for Guix than for GuixSD, Guix is mature and
GuixSD is still exploring ways to provide its own spin on traditional
features (e.g. “guix deploy”).

It’s much easier to tell people to “upgrade” to GuixSD when they already
know Guix as a mature, reliable, and understandable piece of software,
than to get them to “settle” for just Guix on a foreign distro, when
we’re “selling” them GuixSD.

My proposal is to keep https://gnu.org/s/guix focussed on Guix the
functional software environment manager, and have the distro under
https://gnu.org/s/guix/distro.

What do you think?

--
Ricardo

GPG: BCA6 89B6 3655 3801 C3C6  2150 197A 5888 235F ACAC
https://elephly.net

Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hello,

(+ Cc: sirgazil.)

Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@elephly.net> skribis:

> It seems unfortunate to me that we have one shared website for GuixSD
> and Guix.  As much as I love GuixSD, I think Guix is the main “product”
> and GuixSD would need to be moved to a subsite.  That’s primarily
> because GuixSD can be explained in terms of Guix, but explaining Guix as
> “the package manager we use for GuixSD” seems less helpful.
>
> We have many more use-cases for Guix than for GuixSD, Guix is mature and
> GuixSD is still exploring ways to provide its own spin on traditional
> features (e.g. “guix deploy”).
>
> It’s much easier to tell people to “upgrade” to GuixSD when they already
> know Guix as a mature, reliable, and understandable piece of software,
> than to get them to “settle” for just Guix on a foreign distro, when
> we’re “selling” them GuixSD.
>
> My proposal is to keep https://gnu.org/s/guix focussed on Guix the
> functional software environment manager, and have the distro under
> https://gnu.org/s/guix/distro.
>
> What do you think?

In principle I think it’s a good idea.  In practice I’m not sure what
this would look like, though.

For instance, does that mean /distro would be a “second home page”, with
screenshots, contacts, blog entries, baseline, and all?  Or would it be
different?  What would be remove from or add to the actual home page?

Thoughts?

Ludo’.

Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[myglc2]

On 01/19/2018 at 14:32 Ludovic Courtès writes:

> Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@elephly.net> skribis:
>
>> It seems unfortunate to me that we have one shared website for GuixSD
>> and Guix.  As much as I love GuixSD, I think Guix is the main “product”
>> and GuixSD would need to be moved to a subsite.  That’s primarily
>> because GuixSD can be explained in terms of Guix, but explaining Guix as
>> “the package manager we use for GuixSD” seems less helpful.
>>
>> We have many more use-cases for Guix than for GuixSD, Guix is mature and
>> GuixSD is still exploring ways to provide its own spin on traditional
>> features (e.g. “guix deploy”).
>>
>> It’s much easier to tell people to “upgrade” to GuixSD when they already
>> know Guix as a mature, reliable, and understandable piece of software,
>> than to get them to “settle” for just Guix on a foreign distro, when
>> we’re “selling” them GuixSD.
>>
>> My proposal is to keep https://gnu.org/s/guix focussed on Guix the
>> functional software environment manager, and have the distro under
>> https://gnu.org/s/guix/distro.

"functional software environment manager" applies equally well to Guix
and GuixSD. It nicely captures the POV of all our users and potential
users, be they lowly users or sysadmins.

"software environment manager" is equally applicable, has only 3K web
hits, and defers the need to explain what functional means.

So I think we should use "software environment manager" for our product
category / tag line.

>>
>> What do you think?
>
> In principle I think it’s a good idea.  In practice I’m not sure what
> this would look like, though.
>
> For instance, does that mean /distro would be a “second home page”, with
> screenshots, contacts, blog entries, baseline, and all?
>
> Or would it be
> different?  What would be remove from or add to the actual home page?
>
> Thoughts?

NixOS is a good example of what a well-executed second home page might
look like. IMO it fails to help a noob understand Nix/NixOX. I doubt we
could do better.

How about visualizing our situation this way ...

1) We have one product, a software environment manager (temporarily
   referred to below as "GuixU")

2) GuixU possesses the union of all the features and benefits of Guix
   and GuixSD

3) GuixU features become available depending on how you install it


With this in mind, we can visualize our home page as a one-page menu
designed to help you select which item to download.  It could look
something like ...

VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

GuixU, the first software environment manager with

< list 6 key things: the GuixU features/benefits that are
currently the most important to our users >

GuixU is used by

< clickable user types >

GuixU alternatives

< Comparison table: GuixU features/benefits vs your alternatives >

The availability of GuixU features depends on how you install it

< checklist: (GuixU features U download status) vs download options >

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is a nicely durable and familiar design from a marketing POV. It
can be easily kept current by adjusting tables and lists as relevant
technology, features, substitutes, and download options come and go.

WDYT?

- George

Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[Ricardo Wurmus]

Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org> writes:

> Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@elephly.net> skribis:
>
>> It seems unfortunate to me that we have one shared website for GuixSD
>> and Guix.  As much as I love GuixSD, I think Guix is the main “product”
>> and GuixSD would need to be moved to a subsite.  That’s primarily
>> because GuixSD can be explained in terms of Guix, but explaining Guix as
>> “the package manager we use for GuixSD” seems less helpful.
[…]
>> My proposal is to keep https://gnu.org/s/guix focussed on Guix the
>> functional software environment manager, and have the distro under
>> https://gnu.org/s/guix/distro.
>>
>> What do you think?
>
> In principle I think it’s a good idea.  In practice I’m not sure what
> this would look like, though.
>
> For instance, does that mean /distro would be a “second home page”, with
> screenshots, contacts, blog entries, baseline, and all?  Or would it be
> different?  What would be remove from or add to the actual home page?

I think of /distro as just a leaf page, not a whole website on its own.

- The logo in the menu bar should be the Guix logo.  The GuixSD logo
  could be shown in the contents of the /distro page.

- The menu should probably have an item for GuixSD

- The screenshots are applicable to GuixSD only, in my opinion, so they
  don’t make much sense on the Guix home page.  I guess we could have
  Guix-only text “screenshots” to show the command-line user interface.

- I’d remove the “All packages” button from “Discover GuixSD”

- “GNU Guix in other GNU/Linux distros” is a great section that should
  link to the Guix package manager’s home page.

- I would remove the blog, contact, and “GuixSD and GNU Guix in your
  field” sections from the distro sub-page to avoid duplication.

- The two sites should have separate Download sections.

… and as I imagine these changes I become confused about how to link to
these two download pages.  Having a single “Download” link at the top
bar would not work when we want to offer separate pages for GuixSD and
Guix.  We could have /distro/download, which would be linked from the
/distro page, just like we currently have /download linked from right
after the introduction.  It would have to be a very prominent button,
shown “above the page fold” so that we can drop the “Download” item
from the menu bar.

The download page for GuixSD should offer the GuixSD options first and
link to the Guix download page ater the options — and vice versa.

(I’m not as sure about these proposed individual changes as I am about
the proposal to separate the pages for Guix and GuixSD.)

--
Ricardo

GPG: BCA6 89B6 3655 3801 C3C6  2150 197A 5888 235F ACAC
https://elephly.net

Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[myglc2]

On 01/21/2018 at 15:47 Ricardo Wurmus writes:

> Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@elephly.net> skribis:
>>
>>> It seems unfortunate to me that we have one shared website for GuixSD
>>> and Guix.  As much as I love GuixSD, I think Guix is the main “product”
>>> and GuixSD would need to be moved to a subsite.  That’s primarily
>>> because GuixSD can be explained in terms of Guix, but explaining Guix as
>>> “the package manager we use for GuixSD” seems less helpful.
> […]
>>> My proposal is to keep https://gnu.org/s/guix focussed on Guix the
>>> functional software environment manager, and have the distro under
>>> https://gnu.org/s/guix/distro.
>>>
>>> What do you think?
>>
>> In principle I think it’s a good idea.  In practice I’m not sure what
>> this would look like, though.
>>
>> For instance, does that mean /distro would be a “second home page”, with
>> screenshots, contacts, blog entries, baseline, and all?  Or would it be
>> different?  What would be remove from or add to the actual home page?
>
> I think of /distro as just a leaf page, not a whole website on its own.
>
> - The logo in the menu bar should be the Guix logo.  The GuixSD logo
>   could be shown in the contents of the /distro page.
>
> - The menu should probably have an item for GuixSD
>
> - The screenshots are applicable to GuixSD only, in my opinion, so they
>   don’t make much sense on the Guix home page.  I guess we could have
>   Guix-only text “screenshots” to show the command-line user interface.
>
> - I’d remove the “All packages” button from “Discover GuixSD”
>
> - “GNU Guix in other GNU/Linux distros” is a great section that should
>   link to the Guix package manager’s home page.
>
> - I would remove the blog, contact, and “GuixSD and GNU Guix in your
>   field” sections from the distro sub-page to avoid duplication.
>
> - The two sites should have separate Download sections.
>
> … and as I imagine these changes I become confused about how to link to
> these two download pages.  Having a single “Download” link at the top
> bar would not work when we want to offer separate pages for GuixSD and
> Guix.  We could have /distro/download, which would be linked from the
> /distro page, just like we currently have /download linked from right
> after the introduction.  It would have to be a very prominent button,
> shown “above the page fold” so that we can drop the “Download” item
> from the menu bar.
>
> The download page for GuixSD should offer the GuixSD options first and
> link to the Guix download page ater the options — and vice versa.
>
> (I’m not as sure about these proposed individual changes as I am about
> the proposal to separate the pages for Guix and GuixSD.)

ISTM this difficulty in splitting the content across two pages is a
reason to consider again how to unify the presentation of Guix/GuixSD.

Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[Oleg Pykhalov]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 930 bytes --]

Hello,

myglc2@gmail.com writes:

[...]

>> (I’m not as sure about these proposed individual changes as I am about
>> the proposal to separate the pages for Guix and GuixSD.)
>
> ISTM this difficulty in splitting the content across two pages is a
> reason to consider again how to unify the presentation of Guix/GuixSD.

Nix folks have a talk about splitted web pages for Nix package manager,
NixOS, Nix Expression Language.  They don't like it much, because when a
new person come to Nix, he cannot find a documentation for Nix
Expression language, because it's not clear that you need to go to the
separate page <https://nixos.org/nix/manual/> and not for example
<https://nixos.org/nixpkgs/manual/>.

Again while I'm writing current message, I cannot find their NixOS
installation page manual.  :-) It's under support if you want to get
there with a mouse.  <https://nixos.org/nixos/manual/>


Oleg.

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
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Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hello!

Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@elephly.net> skribis:

> Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org> writes:

[...]

>> In principle I think it’s a good idea.  In practice I’m not sure what
>> this would look like, though.
>>
>> For instance, does that mean /distro would be a “second home page”, with
>> screenshots, contacts, blog entries, baseline, and all?  Or would it be
>> different?  What would be remove from or add to the actual home page?
>
> I think of /distro as just a leaf page, not a whole website on its own.
>
> - The logo in the menu bar should be the Guix logo.  The GuixSD logo
>   could be shown in the contents of the /distro page.
>
> - The menu should probably have an item for GuixSD
>
> - The screenshots are applicable to GuixSD only, in my opinion, so they
>   don’t make much sense on the Guix home page.  I guess we could have
>   Guix-only text “screenshots” to show the command-line user interface.
>
> - I’d remove the “All packages” button from “Discover GuixSD”
>
> - “GNU Guix in other GNU/Linux distros” is a great section that should
>   link to the Guix package manager’s home page.
>
> - I would remove the blog, contact, and “GuixSD and GNU Guix in your
>   field” sections from the distro sub-page to avoid duplication.

Sounds reasonable and actionable.

> - The two sites should have separate Download sections.
>
> … and as I imagine these changes I become confused about how to link to
> these two download pages.  Having a single “Download” link at the top
> bar would not work when we want to offer separate pages for GuixSD and
> Guix.  We could have /distro/download, which would be linked from the
> /distro page, just like we currently have /download linked from right
> after the introduction.  It would have to be a very prominent button,
> shown “above the page fold” so that we can drop the “Download” item
> from the menu bar.
>
> The download page for GuixSD should offer the GuixSD options first and
> link to the Guix download page ater the options — and vice versa.

Agreed.

So I guess we should start working in that direction.
Anyone willing to start?

WDYT, sirgazil?

Thanks,
Ludo’.

Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[myglc2]

On 01/24/2018 at 15:22 Ludovic Courtès writes:

> Hello!
>
> Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@elephly.net> skribis:
>
[...]
>> - The two sites should have separate Download sections.
[...]
> Agreed.

> So I guess we should start working in that direction.

[...]

Hello Ludo’ and Ricardo,

Before you build these two sites, how about considering a more unified
approach? IMO this will be easier for users to understand and require
less work. Using 'GuixE' to refer to everything in '(guix) Top' you
could say:


The GuixE software environment manager creates user environments that
are completely and independently specified by users. GuixE users are
never are stuck needing software that a Sysadmin can't, won't, or hasn't
installed. A GuixE user can run multiple, differing environments
simultaneously and can replicate any environment on any GuixE run-time
platform.  GuixE provides system-wide environment management when
appropriate to the run-time platform.  Creation, modification, and
upgrade are atomic and roll-back is instantaneous, so GuixE users and
sysadmins are never stuck with a broken user environment or system.
GuixE implements a functional specification of package, user, and system
configurations using the Scheme language.  GuixE complies with the FSF
Four Essential Freedoms and Free System Distribution Guidelines and
provides easy and immediate access to the exact source being run.  By
default, GuixE uses pre-built package substitutes from the GuixE build
farm and mirrors but users may build any package, or a complete system,
from package developer sources.

GuixE is available on multiple run-time platforms including bare metal
(GuixSD), Virtual Machines (QEMU image), and any GNU/Linux distro (Guix
Binary).


A "product sales message" that goes with this looks like ...

Introducing GuixE - the first software environment manager that solves
the problems of both sysadmins and users of GNU/Linux:

- sysadmin problems:

 - Because I have to modify the system to meet user needs and these are
   risky, I have to prototype every change on a test system

 - because system changes takes time, I can't keep up with user software
   requests and users are unhappy

 - Users request conflicting packages, so I can't make everyone happy

- user problems:

 - I need software that sysops won't or hasn't provide

 - sysops changes stuff and my environment breaks

 - I need software that sysops can't provide because it conflicts with
   other user requirements

WDYT?

George

[1] https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/manual/guix.html

Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hello,

myglc2@gmail.com skribis:

> Before you build these two sites, how about considering a more unified
> approach? IMO this will be easier for users to understand and require
> less work. Using 'GuixE' to refer to everything in '(guix) Top' you
> could say:

I think changing names to address a problem that is very real, yet not
that terrible, would be a bit overkill.  :-)

Ludo’.

Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[myglc2]

On 01/27/2018 at 17:14 Ludovic Courtès writes:

> Hello,
>
> myglc2@gmail.com skribis:
>
>> Before you build these two sites, how about considering a more unified
>> approach? IMO this will be easier for users to understand and require
>> less work. Using 'GuixE' to refer to everything in '(guix) Top' you
>> could say:
>
> I think changing names to address a problem that is very real, yet not
> that terrible, would be a bit overkill.  :-)
>
> Ludo’.

You misunderstand.  I do not propose changing names. I do propose that
you present Guix + GuixSD to the outside world in a unified way. I meant
"GuixE" as a "handle" to that idea. Sorry if that was misleading.

Here it is again w/o GuixE.  Please read this pretending you don't know
anything about Guix/GuixSD (can you? ;-) And please consider these
questions: Does this give me a quick idea what Guix is?  What it does?
Why I might want it?  What I should download? And let me know where it
falls short.

PRODUCT DESCRIPTION:

The Guix software environment manager creates user environments that
are completely and independently specified by users. Guix users are
never are stuck needing software that a Sysadmin can't, won't, or hasn't
installed. A Guix user can run multiple, differing environments
simultaneously and can replicate any environment on any Guix run-time
platform.  Guix provides system-wide environment management when
appropriate to the run-time platform.  Creation, modification, and
upgrade are atomic and roll-back is instantaneous, so Guix users and
sysadmins are never stuck with a broken user environment or system.
Guix implements a functional specification of package, user, and system
configurations using the Scheme language.  Guix complies with the FSF
Four Essential Freedoms and Free System Distribution Guidelines and
provides easy and immediate access to the exact source being run.  By
default, Guix uses pre-built package substitutes from the Guix build
farm and mirrors but users may build any package, or a complete system,
from package developer sources.

Guix is available on multiple run-time platforms including bare metal
(GuixSD), Virtual Machines (QEMU image), and any GNU/Linux distro (Guix
Binary).


SALES MESSAGE:

Introducing Guix - the first software environment manager that solves
the problems of both sysadmins and users of GNU/Linux:

- sysadmin problems:

 - Because I have to modify the system to meet user needs and these are
   risky, I have to prototype every change on a test system

 - because system changes takes time, I can't keep up with user software
   requests and users are unhappy

 - Users request conflicting packages, so I can't make everyone happy

- user problems:

 - I need software that sysops won't or hasn't provided

 - sysops changes stuff and my environment breaks

 - I need software that sysops can't provide because it conflicts with
   other user requirements

Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[Pjotr Prins]

On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 01:20:29PM -0500, myglc2@gmail.com wrote:
> PRODUCT DESCRIPTION:
> 
> The Guix software environment manager creates user environments that
> are completely and independently specified by users. Guix users are
> never are stuck needing software that a Sysadmin can't, won't, or hasn't
> installed. A Guix user can run multiple, differing environments
> simultaneously and can replicate any environment on any Guix run-time
> platform.  Guix provides system-wide environment management when
> appropriate to the run-time platform.  Creation, modification, and
> upgrade are atomic and roll-back is instantaneous, so Guix users and
> sysadmins are never stuck with a broken user environment or system.
> Guix implements a functional specification of package, user, and system
> configurations using the Scheme language.  Guix complies with the FSF
> Four Essential Freedoms and Free System Distribution Guidelines and
> provides easy and immediate access to the exact source being run.  By
> default, Guix uses pre-built package substitutes from the Guix build
> farm and mirrors but users may build any package, or a complete system,
> from package developer sources.

I like it in principle. It invites people to read further. 

Pj.

Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[Ricardo Wurmus]

Hi George,

> You misunderstand.  I do not propose changing names. I do propose that
> you present Guix + GuixSD to the outside world in a unified way. I meant
> "GuixE" as a "handle" to that idea. Sorry if that was misleading.

I understand the idea, and I recognize that this is a possible means to
address the overlap between Guix and the distribution.

Since you can build virtual machine images of GuixSD even if you don’t
have GuixSD installed yourself, the difference between Guix and GuixSD
may seem blurry.

However, *installing* GuixSD and using it as distribution is *very
different* from using Guix as a tool to build and share reproducible
environments (be that as a Docker image, as a tarball, as a temporary
environment, as a virtual machine image, or just by installing packages
into a profile).

GuixSD is both a natural extension of the ideas and features of Guix,
but it is also a variant of the GNU system that you can install on your
workstation, server, or laptop.

> PRODUCT DESCRIPTION:
>
> The Guix software environment manager creates user environments that
> are completely and independently specified by users. Guix users are
> never stuck needing software that a Sysadmin can't, won't, or hasn't
> installed. A Guix user can run multiple, differing environments
> simultaneously and can replicate any environment on any Guix run-time
> platform.

I wouldn’t write it like this, but explicitly mentioning that users can
specify any number of reproducible environments is a good idea, in my
opinion.

> Guix provides system-wide environment management when
> appropriate to the run-time platform.

This sounds *really* vague, and it shows that is done just to avoid
speaking of GuixSD as a separate entity :)

> Creation, modification, and
> upgrade are atomic and roll-back is instantaneous, so Guix users and
> sysadmins are never stuck with a broken user environment or system.

“instantaneous” is not true for GuixSD where a reboot is required.

> Guix implements a functional specification of package, user, and system
> configurations using the Scheme language.  Guix complies with the FSF
> Four Essential Freedoms and Free System Distribution Guidelines and
> provides easy and immediate access to the exact source being run.

> By
> default, Guix uses pre-built package substitutes from the Guix build
> farm and mirrors but users may build any package, or a complete system,
> from package developer sources.

I don’t think this feels at home in an introduction.  It doesn’t seem
like much of a feature; in my opinion this is an implementation detail.

> Guix is available on multiple run-time platforms including bare metal
> (GuixSD), Virtual Machines (QEMU image), and any GNU/Linux distro (Guix
> Binary).

I don’t know about this.  I still feel that GuixSD (be it on bare metal
or on virtual machines) is a different beast; different enough to
deserve separate intros, each with more detail than one could achieve
by glossing over the differences.

> SALES MESSAGE:
>
> Introducing Guix - the first software environment manager that solves
> the problems of both sysadmins and users of GNU/Linux:
>
> - sysadmin problems:
>
>  - Because I have to modify the system to meet user needs and these are
>    risky, I have to prototype every change on a test system
>
>  - because system changes takes time, I can't keep up with user software
>    requests and users are unhappy
>
>  - Users request conflicting packages, so I can't make everyone happy
>
> - user problems:
>
>  - I need software that sysops won't or hasn't provided
>
>  - sysops changes stuff and my environment breaks
>
>  - I need software that sysops can't provide because it conflicts with
>    other user requirements

I’m not a fan of sales messages and that kind of language
(“introducing”, “the first foo to do bar”, etc); I also don’t like that
these are all worded negatively, which is something we should avoid.

I agree that we can speak of Guix in a little wider terms
(e.g. “software environment manager” instead of just “package manager”),
but I feel even more strongly that trying to smoothen over the
differences between Guix and GuixSD would not be a good idea.  I do
agree, though, that we could describe GuixSD as a special case of other
Guix features: it’s a bare-metal deployment of these virtual systems
that “guix system” can produce.

I still think that moving the introduction and the screenshots of GuixSD
to a sub-page would be an improvement, as it reduces confusion and keeps
the focus on the features of Guix (which also include “guix system”,
which has GuixSD as a special case).

--
Ricardo

GPG: BCA6 89B6 3655 3801 C3C6  2150 197A 5888 235F ACAC
https://elephly.net

Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[myglc2]

Hi Ricardo, 

On 01/28/2018 at 17:24 Ricardo Wurmus writes:

> Hi George,
>
>> You misunderstand.  I do not propose changing names. I do propose that
>> you present Guix + GuixSD to the outside world in a unified way. I meant
>> "GuixE" as a "handle" to that idea. Sorry if that was misleading.
>
> I understand the idea, and I recognize that this is a possible means to
> address the overlap between Guix and the distribution.
>
> Since you can build virtual machine images of GuixSD even if you don’t
> have GuixSD installed yourself, the difference between Guix and GuixSD
> may seem blurry.
>
> However, *installing* GuixSD and using it as distribution is *very
> different* from using Guix as a tool to build and share reproducible
> environments (be that as a Docker image, as a tarball, as a temporary
> environment, as a virtual machine image, or just by installing packages
> into a profile).
>
> GuixSD is both a natural extension of the ideas and features of Guix,
> but it is also a variant of the GNU system that you can install on
> your workstation, server, or laptop.

Agreed. But let's face it, distros are a dime a dozen. Distrowatch shows
306 distros. GuixSD is number 175. This is hardly surprising given how
difficult it is to gain user mind-share for "yet another distro".  For
anyone already running a distro with a graphical package manager on a
single-user laptop or workstation, GuixSD is a hard sell. For someone
already running another distro on servers, as you alluded to elsewhere,
Guix is more mature and probably a better pitch. So I am saying: Let's
not kill ourselves pitching GuixSD separately.

Where you say "may seem blurry" I say "is blurry". Why?  AFAICT every
guix command except 'guix reconfigure' runs everywhere.  

You say *very different*. I would say it is subtle. I wouldn't pitch the
difference hard to a prospect.  I would say to them: we don't care which
you buy: You can buy a) Guix and keep using your existing distro and
familiar package manager or b) you can buy GuixSD and use 'system
reconfigure' and gain benefits you may like. In either case, the primary
benefits are the same, users are freed from the sysadmin and the
sysadmin is freed from nonstop user package requests.

>> PRODUCT DESCRIPTION:
>>
>> The Guix software environment manager creates user environments that
>> are completely and independently specified by users. Guix users are
>> never stuck needing software that a Sysadmin can't, won't, or hasn't
>> installed. A Guix user can run multiple, differing environments
>> simultaneously and can replicate any environment on any Guix run-time
>> platform.
>
> I wouldn’t write it like this, but explicitly mentioning that users can
> specify any number of reproducible environments is a good idea, in my
> opinion.

My goal was to express the essence of the per-user Guix experience in a
few lines. Happy to hear edits/improvements if you have them.

>> Guix provides system-wide environment management when
>> appropriate to the run-time platform.
>
> This sounds *really* vague, and it shows that is done just to avoid
> speaking of GuixSD as a separate entity :)

But it is a true statement, isn't it?  I didn't say more because adding
GuixSD-specific features here duplicates features already described or
injects features described later in the paragraph. What would you add
here?
 
>> Creation, modification, and
>> upgrade are atomic and roll-back is instantaneous, so Guix users and
>> sysadmins are never stuck with a broken user environment or system.
>
> “instantaneous” is not true for GuixSD where a reboot is required.

I don't follow you. I was thinking of ‘guix system roll-back’ and ‘guix
system switch-generation’ here. Are you referring to the occasional need
to reboot GuxiSD to effect a change. If so expects to occasionally
reboot an OS. Compared to restoring a backup, rebooting and choosing a
different system generation is instantaneous IMO.

>> Guix implements a functional specification of package, user, and system
>> configurations using the Scheme language.  Guix complies with the FSF
>> Four Essential Freedoms and Free System Distribution Guidelines and
>> provides easy and immediate access to the exact source being run.
>
>> By
>> default, Guix uses pre-built package substitutes from the Guix build
>> farm and mirrors but users may build any package, or a complete system,
>> from package developer sources.
>
> I don’t think this feels at home in an introduction.  It doesn’t seem
> like much of a feature; in my opinion this is an implementation
> detail.

I know but this is here because I wanted to introduce the central Guix
concept of "substitutes" and because I wanted to mention what AFAICS is
a unique feature: the ability to easily and completely reinflate a user
or system environment from only developer source.

>> Guix is available on multiple run-time platforms including bare metal
>> (GuixSD), Virtual Machines (QEMU image), and any GNU/Linux distro (Guix
>> Binary).
>
> I don’t know about this.  I still feel that GuixSD (be it on bare metal
> or on virtual machines) is a different beast; different enough to
> deserve separate intros, each with more detail than one could achieve
> by glossing over the differences.

OK. I think it helps to imagine that our prospective user has read the
intro paragraph above and decided they want to try Guix. Now what more
do they need to know to chose a download? ISTM we could show this info
in a "download comparison" table. E.g.,

| Run Mode  | Platform support                      | Delivery Format | Install by   | x86_64 | i686 | armhf | aarch64 |
|-----------+---------------------------------------+-----------------+--------------+--------+------+-------+---------|
| Native    | Bare Metal (Note 2)                   | ISO image       | USB or DVD   | x      | x    |       |         |
| VM        | KVM, Xen, VirtualBox, Hyper-V, VMware | qcow2 image     | not required | x      | x    |       |         |
| VM        | VirtualBox, Hyper-V, VMware (Note 3)  | qcow2 image     | not required | x      | x    |       |         |
| Distro    | any GNU/Linux distro                  | binary tarball  | manual setup | x      | x    | x     | x       |
| Source    | (Note 1)                              | source tarball  | GNU build    | x      | x    | x     | x       |
| Developer | (Note 1)                              | git repo        | GNU build    | x      | x    | x     | x       |

- Note 1: Minimum source build platform: GNU Guile, version 2.0.9+ or 2.2.x+,
  GNU libgcrypt; GnuTLS Guile bindings; Guile-Git, GNU Make
- Note 2: Currently in Beta. This GNU/Linux distro runs on
  any hardware supported by the linux libre kernel (Ref: libreboot HW and all HW that runs Debian)
- Note 3: Via 'qemu-img convert qcow2.img' ref: https://docs.openstack.org/image-guide/convert-images.html
- Guix and GuixSD installation requires root or su


>> SALES MESSAGE:
>>
>> Introducing Guix - the first software environment manager that solves
>> the problems of both sysadmins and users of GNU/Linux:
>>
>> - sysadmin problems:
>>
>>  - Because I have to modify the system to meet user needs and these are
>>    risky, I have to prototype every change on a test system
>>
>>  - because system changes takes time, I can't keep up with user software
>>    requests and users are unhappy
>>
>>  - Users request conflicting packages, so I can't make everyone happy
>>
>> - user problems:
>>
>>  - I need software that sysops won't or hasn't provided
>>
>>  - sysops changes stuff and my environment breaks
>>
>>  - I need software that sysops can't provide because it conflicts with
>>    other user requirements
>
> I’m not a fan of sales messages and that kind of language
> (“introducing”, “the first foo to do bar”, etc); I also don’t like that
> these are all worded negatively, which is something we should avoid.

OK but keep in mind that we have very little time to capture a
prospective user's attention. You normally do this by saying what is
unique about a product and what problem it solves.  This is my attempt
at points that might convince a sysadmin and/or user to try
Guix/GuixSD. We can make it less salesy. But are the points wrong?  Is
something missing? Are there better points to make?

> I agree that we can speak of Guix in a little wider terms
> (e.g. “software environment manager” instead of just “package
> manager”), but I feel even more strongly that trying to smoothen over
> the differences between Guix and GuixSD would not be a good idea.

I believe you. Can you please translate this feeling into a tangible
problem that a user that downloads without understanding the differences
will encounter?

> I do agree, though, that we could describe GuixSD as a special case of
> other Guix features: it’s a bare-metal deployment of these virtual
> systems that “guix system” can produce.
>
> I still think that moving the introduction and the screenshots of GuixSD
> to a sub-page would be an improvement, as it reduces confusion and keeps
> the focus on the features of Guix (which also include “guix system”,
> which has GuixSD as a special case).

Agreed. Maybe we can both be happy if we visualize putting GuixSD
screenshots on the GuixSD download page ;-)

As for the home page, it seems like screenshots and/or a video of the
Guix CLI in action would be good.  Screen shots and video of emacs-guix
would be good. A video of dropping into Guile and/or Geiser and doing
something cool would be good.

A diagram conveying the multitude of Guix run-time environments would be
good.

Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[Pjotr Prins]

On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 11:14:15PM -0500, myglc2@gmail.com wrote:
> > I’m not a fan of sales messages and that kind of language
> > (“introducing”, “the first foo to do bar”, etc); I also don’t like that
> > these are all worded negatively, which is something we should avoid.
> 
> OK but keep in mind that we have very little time to capture a
> prospective user's attention. You normally do this by saying what is
> unique about a product and what problem it solves.  This is my attempt
> at points that might convince a sysadmin and/or user to try
> Guix/GuixSD. We can make it less salesy. But are the points wrong?  Is
> something missing? Are there better points to make?

The case is a bit complicated here. Not only do we present two
products we also have multiple audiences. The current website (in the
true GNU spirit) addresses hackers. That works because Guix was WIP
and needed more of those. The hacker spirit has served us and still
serves us.

But to popularize Guix we have at least two other audiences. The first
one 'sysadmins' and 'devops' is an important one because we need to
get Guix on systems they control. This proves to be a hard sell in my
experience.  Mostly, I think, because sysadmins are not aware of the
benefits - or simply don't want to be aware. No kidding, I have
encountered that a few times. 

Then there are end-users and developers who can use Guix for their
purposes and it would liberate them.

The net benefit for all is gaining control, reproducibility and
(hopefully) saving time.

I.e., to have a successful sales pitch you'll need to address 2*3=6
targets.

I have a suspicion that we are inclined as hackers to go by merit.
I.e., Guix is superior so we'll win. History has proven this is
usually not the right stance.

I am happy George wants to address this. I think we should be fully
receptive. 

Maybe we should add new pages:

1. Guix for sysadmins and devops
2. Guix for end users and organisations

And take them by the hand.

Pj.

-- 

RE: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[Cook, Malcolm]

Pjotr, that was excellently put!

I entirely agree that with the right educational materials you are going to see have the possibility of appealing to other groups/cultures/biases.

Having a section for each of the 2**3 type of user might be the perfect compromise.

Perhaps try to appeal to each audience not with "the first foo to bar" language, but rather the language of use cases, such as:

	As an administrator of a general purpose HPC cluster, I can focus on networking optimizations ("the last mile", I/O, CUDA, performance, permissions, interesting massively parallel  etc) rather than keeping up-to-date with every last scientific application.

	Guix's garbage collection capabilities remove the guess-work from deleting "old" versions of libraries from my installation!

	As an system administrator, solving the dependency hell of end-user applications should not be my problem!  Guix puts this problem where it belongs - in the hand of application specialists.

	As an sysadmin administrator, with guix I am removed from the politics of when to update an application!

	Documenting what applications are installed used to be a separate problem from that of installing them.   With GUIX, performing the installation makes them appear in my software catalog.  No more worries about inconsistencies!

	As a user of advanced scientific applications, I am now in a position to deploy which applications I need as I see fit, and have the upstream community support to share the tooling. 

	As a bioinformatics developer, the same tools I use to install application environments can be used to deploy advanced workflows with the same level of confidence.

Does this strike a sweet spot?

~malcolm_cook@stowers.org

 > -----Original Message-----
 > From: Guix-devel [mailto:guix-devel-bounces+mec=stowers.org@gnu.org]
 > On Behalf Of Pjotr Prins
 > Sent: Monday, January 29, 2018 1:37 AM
 > To: myglc2@gmail.com
 > Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org; sirgazil <lizagris@protonmail.com>
 > Subject: Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top
 > 
 > On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 11:14:15PM -0500, myglc2@gmail.com wrote:
 > > > I’m not a fan of sales messages and that kind of language
 > > > (“introducing”, “the first foo to do bar”, etc); I also don’t like that
 > > > these are all worded negatively, which is something we should avoid.
 > >
 > > OK but keep in mind that we have very little time to capture a
 > > prospective user's attention. You normally do this by saying what is
 > > unique about a product and what problem it solves.  This is my attempt
 > > at points that might convince a sysadmin and/or user to try
 > > Guix/GuixSD. We can make it less salesy. But are the points wrong?  Is
 > > something missing? Are there better points to make?
 > 
 > The case is a bit complicated here. Not only do we present two
 > products we also have multiple audiences. The current website (in the
 > true GNU spirit) addresses hackers. That works because Guix was WIP
 > and needed more of those. The hacker spirit has served us and still
 > serves us.
 > 
 > But to popularize Guix we have at least two other audiences. The first
 > one 'sysadmins' and 'devops' is an important one because we need to
 > get Guix on systems they control. This proves to be a hard sell in my
 > experience.  Mostly, I think, because sysadmins are not aware of the
 > benefits - or simply don't want to be aware. No kidding, I have
 > encountered that a few times.
 > 
 > Then there are end-users and developers who can use Guix for their
 > purposes and it would liberate them.
 > 
 > The net benefit for all is gaining control, reproducibility and
 > (hopefully) saving time.
 > 
 > I.e., to have a successful sales pitch you'll need to address 2*3=6
 > targets.
 > 
 > I have a suspicion that we are inclined as hackers to go by merit.
 > I.e., Guix is superior so we'll win. History has proven this is
 > usually not the right stance.
 > 
 > I am happy George wants to address this. I think we should be fully
 > receptive.
 > 
 > Maybe we should add new pages:
 > 
 > 1. Guix for sysadmins and devops
 > 2. Guix for end users and organisations
 > 
 > And take them by the hand.
 > 
 > Pj.
 > 
 > --

Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[Ricardo Wurmus]

Hi Malcolm,

> I entirely agree that with the right educational materials you are
> going to see have the possibility of appealing to other
> groups/cultures/biases.

Yes, I think that does make sense.

> Having a section for each of the 2**3 type of user might be the
> perfect compromise.
>
> Perhaps try to appeal to each audience not with "the first foo to bar"
> language, but rather the language of use cases, such as:
>
> 	As an administrator of a general purpose HPC cluster, I can focus on
> 	networking optimizations ("the last mile", I/O, CUDA, performance,
> 	permissions, interesting massively parallel etc) rather than keeping
> 	up-to-date with every last scientific application.
>
> 	Guix's garbage collection capabilities remove the guess-work from
> 	deleting "old" versions of libraries from my installation!
>
> 	As an system administrator, solving the dependency hell of end-user
> 	applications should not be my problem!  Guix puts this problem where
> 	it belongs - in the hand of application specialists.
>
> 	As an sysadmin administrator, with guix I am removed from the
> 	politics of when to update an application!
>
> 	Documenting what applications are installed used to be a separate
> 	problem from that of installing them.   With GUIX, performing the
> 	installation makes them appear in my software catalog.  No more
> 	worries about inconsistencies!

(It’s “Guix”, not “GUIX”.  People at work also always write “GUIX” and I
can’t figure out why…  Maybe we should come up with a backronym to make
it a valid alternative spelling :))

> 	As a user of advanced scientific applications, I am now in a position to deploy which applications I need as I see fit, and have the upstream community support to share the tooling.
>
> 	As a bioinformatics developer, the same tools I use to install application environments can be used to deploy advanced workflows with the same level of confidence.
>
> Does this strike a sweet spot?

I like these testimonial style descriptions, and I think it makes sense
to add separate sections for different archetypical users.  (We already
have a related section entitled “GuixSD and GNU Guix in your field”,
which I found intriguing, but it only links to blog posts with certain
tags.)

However, I think that this is tangential to the question of whether to
move the GuixSD description and intro to a separate page.  If we added
those sections they’d be only about Guix, not about GuixSD, no?

--
Ricardo

GPG: BCA6 89B6 3655 3801 C3C6  2150 197A 5888 235F ACAC
https://elephly.net

RE: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[Cook, Malcolm]

Ricardo,

Sorry for the MisCaPITaliZAtion  

Sorry if I lost the flow of the discussion.  I entirely trust your understanding of the focus of the discussion.

Cheers,

~malcolm_cook@stowers.org

 > -----Original Message-----
 > From: Ricardo Wurmus [mailto:rekado@elephly.net]
 > Sent: Monday, January 29, 2018 4:20 PM
 > To: Cook, Malcolm <MEC@stowers.org>
 > Cc: Pjotr Prins <pjotr.public12@thebird.nl>; myglc2@gmail.com; guix-
 > devel@gnu.org; sirgazil <lizagris@protonmail.com>
 > Subject: Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top
 > 
 > 
 > Hi Malcolm,
 > 
 > > I entirely agree that with the right educational materials you are
 > > going to see have the possibility of appealing to other
 > > groups/cultures/biases.
 > 
 > Yes, I think that does make sense.
 > 
 > > Having a section for each of the 2**3 type of user might be the
 > > perfect compromise.
 > >
 > > Perhaps try to appeal to each audience not with "the first foo to bar"
 > > language, but rather the language of use cases, such as:
 > >
 > > 	As an administrator of a general purpose HPC cluster, I can focus on
 > > 	networking optimizations ("the last mile", I/O, CUDA, performance,
 > > 	permissions, interesting massively parallel etc) rather than keeping
 > > 	up-to-date with every last scientific application.
 > >
 > > 	Guix's garbage collection capabilities remove the guess-work from
 > > 	deleting "old" versions of libraries from my installation!
 > >
 > > 	As an system administrator, solving the dependency hell of end-
 > user
 > > 	applications should not be my problem!  Guix puts this problem
 > where
 > > 	it belongs - in the hand of application specialists.
 > >
 > > 	As an sysadmin administrator, with guix I am removed from the
 > > 	politics of when to update an application!
 > >
 > > 	Documenting what applications are installed used to be a separate
 > > 	problem from that of installing them.   With GUIX, performing the
 > > 	installation makes them appear in my software catalog.  No more
 > > 	worries about inconsistencies!
 > 
 > (It’s “Guix”, not “GUIX”.  People at work also always write “GUIX” and I
 > can’t figure out why…  Maybe we should come up with a backronym to
 > make
 > it a valid alternative spelling :))
 > 
 > > 	As a user of advanced scientific applications, I am now in a position
 > to deploy which applications I need as I see fit, and have the upstream
 > community support to share the tooling.
 > >
 > > 	As a bioinformatics developer, the same tools I use to install
 > application environments can be used to deploy advanced workflows with
 > the same level of confidence.
 > >
 > > Does this strike a sweet spot?
 > 
 > I like these testimonial style descriptions, and I think it makes sense
 > to add separate sections for different archetypical users.  (We already
 > have a related section entitled “GuixSD and GNU Guix in your field”,
 > which I found intriguing, but it only links to blog posts with certain
 > tags.)
 > 
 > However, I think that this is tangential to the question of whether to
 > move the GuixSD description and intro to a separate page.  If we added
 > those sections they’d be only about Guix, not about GuixSD, no?
 > 
 > --
 > Ricardo
 > 
 > GPG: BCA6 89B6 3655 3801 C3C6  2150 197A 5888 235F ACAC
 > https://elephly.net
 > 

Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[Ricardo Wurmus]

Hi Malcolm,

> Sorry for the MisCaPITaliZAtion

No WoRRieS!  It seems to be very common :)

> Sorry if I lost the flow of the discussion.  I entirely trust your
> understanding of the focus of the discussion.

No, your comments were spot on and very helpful.  I’m just trying to
understand if your suggestions would better fit in some sort of unified
description for both GuixSD and Guix (as George proposed) or if it were
clearer if we treated GuixSD as a special case (“A system derived from
the extension of Guix features to the bare-metal/GNU+Linux distribution
level”).

--
Ricardo

GPG: BCA6 89B6 3655 3801 C3C6  2150 197A 5888 235F ACAC
https://elephly.net

Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[myglc2]

On 01/30/2018 at 02:03 Ricardo Wurmus writes:

> Hi Malcolm,
>
>> Sorry for the MisCaPITaliZAtion
>
> No WoRRieS!  It seems to be very common :)
>
>> Sorry if I lost the flow of the discussion.  I entirely trust your
>> understanding of the focus of the discussion.
>
> No, your comments were spot on and very helpful.  I’m just trying to
> understand if your suggestions would better fit in some sort of unified
> description for both GuixSD and Guix (as George proposed) or if it were
> clearer if we treated GuixSD as a special case (“A system derived from
> the extension of Guix features to the bare-metal/GNU+Linux distribution
> level”).

ISTM Malcom's comments apply equally well to Guix and Guix+GuixSD when a
sysops manager is involved in the deployment decision. If they have an
installed base on another distro, Guix will be deployed first and GuixSD
may never be deployed. OTOH, a forward thinking sysops setting up new
systems in a startup might deploy only GuixSD ;-) This possibility is a
reason to include GuixSD as part of a unified presentation to sysops
targets.

Malcom's comments don't apply to users that are owners of dedicated
desktop/laptop hardware. Other Distros address such "desktop" users by
a) ignoring them, b) treating them like sub project (debian), c)
targeting them with separate server and desktop installs (Ubuntu), or d)
providing only a desktop solution (mint).  ISTM we have the same
options. At the moment we are somewhere between a) and b).  We could
easily move to b) or c). Moving to d) would be a big step: we would
probably need to develop a "desktop variant" of GuixSD, re-brand it, and
market it separately to compete effectively against distros targeting
only desktop users.

WDYT? - George

Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[George myglc2 Clemmer]

On 01/29/2018 at 22:24 Cook writes:

> Ricardo,
>
> Sorry for the MisCaPITaliZAtion

Hey Malcolm, in sales and marketing we are thrilled if anybody remembers
our name, nevermind capitalization ;-)

> Sorry if I lost the flow of the discussion.  I entirely trust your
> understanding of the focus of the discussion.

I think this thread was already way off of Ricardo's original question,
due in no small part to my malfeasance. Your comments are, IMO, right on
the money WRT making the case for Guix/GuixSD.

Ricardo, do you have a suggestion of where/how to relocate this
discussion?

>
> Cheers,
>
> ~malcolm_cook@stowers.org
>
>  > -----Original Message-----
>  > From: Ricardo Wurmus [mailto:rekado@elephly.net]
>  > Sent: Monday, January 29, 2018 4:20 PM
>  > To: Cook, Malcolm <MEC@stowers.org>
>  > Cc: Pjotr Prins <pjotr.public12@thebird.nl>; myglc2@gmail.com; guix-
>  > devel@gnu.org; sirgazil <lizagris@protonmail.com>
>  > Subject: Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top
>  >
>  >
>  > Hi Malcolm,
>  >
>  > > I entirely agree that with the right educational materials you are
>  > > going to see have the possibility of appealing to other
>  > > groups/cultures/biases.
>  >
>  > Yes, I think that does make sense.
>  >
>  > > Having a section for each of the 2**3 type of user might be the
>  > > perfect compromise.
>  > >
>  > > Perhaps try to appeal to each audience not with "the first foo to bar"
>  > > language, but rather the language of use cases, such as:
>  > >
>  > > 	As an administrator of a general purpose HPC cluster, I can focus on
>  > > 	networking optimizations ("the last mile", I/O, CUDA, performance,
>  > > 	permissions, interesting massively parallel etc) rather than keeping
>  > > 	up-to-date with every last scientific application.
>  > >
>  > > 	Guix's garbage collection capabilities remove the guess-work from
>  > > 	deleting "old" versions of libraries from my installation!
>  > >
>  > > 	As an system administrator, solving the dependency hell of end-
>  > user
>  > > 	applications should not be my problem!  Guix puts this problem
>  > where
>  > > 	it belongs - in the hand of application specialists.
>  > >
>  > > 	As an sysadmin administrator, with guix I am removed from the
>  > > 	politics of when to update an application!
>  > >
>  > > 	Documenting what applications are installed used to be a separate
>  > > 	problem from that of installing them.   With GUIX, performing the
>  > > 	installation makes them appear in my software catalog.  No more
>  > > 	worries about inconsistencies!
>  >
>  > (It’s “Guix”, not “GUIX”.  People at work also always write “GUIX” and I
>  > can’t figure out why…  Maybe we should come up with a backronym to
>  > make
>  > it a valid alternative spelling :))
>  >
>  > > 	As a user of advanced scientific applications, I am now in a position
>  > to deploy which applications I need as I see fit, and have the upstream
>  > community support to share the tooling.
>  > >
>  > > 	As a bioinformatics developer, the same tools I use to install
>  > application environments can be used to deploy advanced workflows with
>  > the same level of confidence.
>  > >
>  > > Does this strike a sweet spot?
>  >
>  > I like these testimonial style descriptions, and I think it makes sense
>  > to add separate sections for different archetypical users.  (We already
>  > have a related section entitled “GuixSD and GNU Guix in your field”,
>  > which I found intriguing, but it only links to blog posts with certain
>  > tags.)
>  >
>  > However, I think that this is tangential to the question of whether to
>  > move the GuixSD description and intro to a separate page.  If we added
>  > those sections they’d be only about Guix, not about GuixSD, no?
>  >
>  > --
>  > Ricardo
>  >
>  > GPG: BCA6 89B6 3655 3801 C3C6  2150 197A 5888 235F ACAC
>  > https://elephly.net
>  >

Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[Ricardo Wurmus]

George myglc2 Clemmer <myglc2@gmail.com> writes:

> Your comments are, IMO, right on
> the money WRT making the case for Guix/GuixSD.

I agree.

> Ricardo, do you have a suggestion of where/how to relocate this
> discussion?

Let’s keep it right here :)  I only meant to get additional input on the
original question, because I think that affects how we proceed with
regards to “user stories”.

My apologies if that came across as cranky; it certainly wasn’t meant
to be understood this way.

--
Ricardo

GPG: BCA6 89B6 3655 3801 C3C6  2150 197A 5888 235F ACAC
https://elephly.net

Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[Pjotr Prins]

On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 11:20:17PM +0100, Ricardo Wurmus wrote:
> I like these testimonial style descriptions, and I think it makes sense
> to add separate sections for different archetypical users.  (We already
> have a related section entitled “GuixSD and GNU Guix in your field”,
> which I found intriguing, but it only links to blog posts with certain
> tags.)

How about rotating these at the top of the page when people visit it?

Like a motd. Incentive to refresh the page too ;) Make them clickable
for more info. Maybe takes them to all user experiences.

That way you don't target one group, but there is always a chance
someone gets incensed.

Pj.

Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[Pjotr Prins]

On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 11:20:17PM +0100, Ricardo Wurmus wrote:
> However, I think that this is tangential to the question of whether to
> move the GuixSD description and intro to a separate page.  If we added
> those sections they’d be only about Guix, not about GuixSD, no?

I am convinced that Guix packages are way more important than GuixSD
when it comes to numbers and pleasure. At least in the medium term.

Take a cue from Nix and NixOS.

Guix users can be millions in the coming 5-10 years. GuixSD users will
be in the tens of thousands.

I am not saying GuixSD is not important. For one, GuixSD feeds into
Guix. More importantly it is the libre Linux OS of choice and soon
Hurd. So it deserves its place and is massively important.

But when it comes to the *message* and target audience and numbers, I
think we should target millions on the main GNU Guix website and have
a separate place for GuixSD. The latter truely has to grow by merit
and will be picked up by people looking for libre. No one is going to
install GuixSD by 'chance' even though it is the coolest thing!

We should make Guix the experience with the lowest threshold, the
lowest barrier to entry and the website should take the audiences by
the hand. That is, if we want to get as many people on board as we
can. The fewer steps, the fewer complications, the more likely it is
going to be a true hit. At this point, I consider it our main
challenge. Guix should be easier than Debian packages, Conda and
Easybuild. GNU Guix is very close to becomig a winner for libre
software. We all need it. But people need to understand what they are
missing out on.

Pj.

Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[myglc2]

On 01/29/2018 at 08:37 Pjotr Prins writes:

> On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 11:14:15PM -0500, myglc2@gmail.com wrote:
>> > I’m not a fan of sales messages and that kind of language
>> > (“introducing”, “the first foo to do bar”, etc); I also don’t like that
>> > these are all worded negatively, which is something we should avoid.
>> 
>> OK but keep in mind that we have very little time to capture a
>> prospective user's attention. You normally do this by saying what is
>> unique about a product and what problem it solves.  This is my attempt
>> at points that might convince a sysadmin and/or user to try
>> Guix/GuixSD. We can make it less salesy. But are the points wrong?  Is
>> something missing? Are there better points to make?
>
> The case is a bit complicated here. Not only do we present two
> products we also have multiple audiences. The current website (in the
> true GNU spirit) addresses hackers. That works because Guix was WIP
> and needed more of those. The hacker spirit has served us and still
> serves us.
>
> But to popularize Guix we have at least two other audiences. The first
> one 'sysadmins' and 'devops' is an important one because we need to
> get Guix on systems they control. This proves to be a hard sell in my
> experience.  Mostly, I think, because sysadmins are not aware of the
> benefits - or simply don't want to be aware. No kidding, I have
> encountered that a few times. 
>
> Then there are end-users and developers who can use Guix for their
> purposes and it would liberate them.
>
> The net benefit for all is gaining control, reproducibility and
> (hopefully) saving time.
>
> I.e., to have a successful sales pitch you'll need to address 2*3=6
> targets.

To be explicit, I added a couple target groups and indicated the product
we would pitch with an x ...

| Target Group                | Guix | GuixSD | Motivation                           |
|-----------------------------+------+--------+--------------------------------------|
| hacker                      | x    | x      | scheme, functional, free             |
| sysadmin & devop            | x    | ?      | make user/developer/researcher happy |
| user/developer/researcher   | x    |        | productivity tool                    |
| generic organizational user | ?    |        | ?                                    |
| desktop distro user         |      | ?      | ?                                    |
|-----------------------------+------+--------+--------------------------------------|

Note: "?" - not sure

WDYT? - George

Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[Pjotr Prins]

On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 11:58:09AM -0500, myglc2@gmail.com wrote:
> To be explicit, I added a couple target groups and indicated the product
> we would pitch with an x ...
> 
> | Target Group                | Guix | GuixSD | Motivation                           |
> |-----------------------------+------+--------+--------------------------------------|
> | hacker                      | x    | x      | scheme, functional, free             
> | sysadmin & devop            | x    | ?      | make user/developer/researcher happy 

I doubt they will use GuixSD unless they have a very specific purpose
in mind, e.g., say for mailserver deployment. Cloud/VMs. It could
work, but I don't think it is a large group we can pitch to.

> | user/developer/researcher   | x    |        | productivity tool

This is my favorite because they are potential packagers.

> | generic organizational user | ?    |        | ?                                    |

Yes, another target group, i.e., the pointy haired boss. Some of these
understand the concept of reducing cost.

> | desktop distro user         |      | ?      | ?                                    |

Libre desktop user. Yes.

> |-----------------------------+------+--------+--------------------------------------|

We also have embedded systems and phones as a potential audience. I
think OpenWRT/LEDE, for example, could buy into Guix. And then there
is Android. If we are able to strip down packages to a minimum that
becomes very interesting to them.

Then we have HPC as a specialization with optimized targets and
relocatable packages. 

And light containers for webservice/cloud deployments...

Pj.

-- 

Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[myglc2]

On 01/31/2018 at 18:27 Pjotr Prins writes:

> On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 11:58:09AM -0500, myglc2@gmail.com wrote:
>> To be explicit, I added a couple target groups and indicated the product
>> we would pitch with an x ...
>> 
>> | Target Group                | Guix | GuixSD | Motivation                           |
>> |-----------------------------+------+--------+--------------------------------------|
>> | hacker                      | x    | x      | scheme, functional, free             
>> | sysadmin & devop            | x    | ?      | make user/developer/researcher happy 
>
> I doubt they will use GuixSD unless they have a very specific purpose
> in mind, e.g., say for mailserver deployment. Cloud/VMs. It could
> work, but I don't think it is a large group we can pitch to.

What about a forward-thinking sysadmin commissioning new systems for a
startup? If they know they want Guix is there a reason they wouldn't
install GuixSD?

>
>> | user/developer/researcher   | x    |        | productivity tool
>
> This is my favorite because they are potential packagers.
>
>> | generic organizational user | ?    |        | ?                                    |
>
> Yes, another target group, i.e., the pointy haired boss. Some of these
> understand the concept of reducing cost.

Here I am thinking of "unsophisticated" users, e.g., someone told to run
SAS on a server that is probably not going to actually ever call guix.

>
>> | desktop distro user         |      | ?      | ?                                    |
>
> Libre desktop user. Yes.
>
>> |-----------------------------+------+--------+--------------------------------------|
>
> We also have embedded systems and phones as a potential audience. I
> think OpenWRT/LEDE, for example, could buy into Guix. And then there
> is Android. If we are able to strip down packages to a minimum that
> becomes very interesting to them.

OK, so like this ?

>> | Target Group                | Guix | GuixSD | 
>> | embedded sys/phone          |      | x      |

>
> Then we have HPC as a specialization with optimized targets and
> relocatable packages.

OK, so like this?

>> | Target Group                | Guix | GuixSD | 
>> | HPC sysadmin                | x    | x      | optimized targets and relocatable packages
>
> And light containers for webservice/cloud deployments...

Is this more detail on HPC or something else entirely?

TIA - George

Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[Pjotr Prins]

On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 01:11:23PM -0500, myglc2@gmail.com wrote:
> On 01/31/2018 at 18:27 Pjotr Prins writes:
> 
> > On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 11:58:09AM -0500, myglc2@gmail.com wrote:
> >> To be explicit, I added a couple target groups and indicated the product
> >> we would pitch with an x ...
> >> 
> >> | Target Group                | Guix | GuixSD | Motivation                           |
> >> |-----------------------------+------+--------+--------------------------------------|
> >> | hacker                      | x    | x      | scheme, functional, free             
> >> | sysadmin & devop            | x    | ?      | make user/developer/researcher happy 
> >
> > I doubt they will use GuixSD unless they have a very specific purpose
> > in mind, e.g., say for mailserver deployment. Cloud/VMs. It could
> > work, but I don't think it is a large group we can pitch to.
> 
> What about a forward-thinking sysadmin commissioning new systems for a
> startup? If they know they want Guix is there a reason they wouldn't
> install GuixSD?

Could be.

> >
> >> | user/developer/researcher   | x    |        | productivity tool
> >
> > This is my favorite because they are potential packagers.
> >
> >> | generic organizational user | ?    |        | ?                                    |
> >
> > Yes, another target group, i.e., the pointy haired boss. Some of these
> > understand the concept of reducing cost.
> 
> Here I am thinking of "unsophisticated" users, e.g., someone told to run
> SAS on a server that is probably not going to actually ever call guix.

Yes. But the pointy haired boss may read about saving time and money
and call for trying out Guix.

> >
> >> | desktop distro user         |      | ?      | ?                                    |
> >
> > Libre desktop user. Yes.
> >
> >> |-----------------------------+------+--------+--------------------------------------|
> >
> > We also have embedded systems and phones as a potential audience. I
> > think OpenWRT/LEDE, for example, could buy into Guix. And then there
> > is Android. If we are able to strip down packages to a minimum that
> > becomes very interesting to them.
> 
> OK, so like this ?
> 
> >> | Target Group                | Guix | GuixSD | 
> >> | embedded sys/phone          |      | x      |

It will be a migration path. I was thinking Guix packages. But when we
have lean packages GuixSD becomes an option, indeed.

> >
> > Then we have HPC as a specialization with optimized targets and
> > relocatable packages.
> 
> OK, so like this?
> 
> >> | Target Group                | Guix | GuixSD | 
> >> | HPC sysadmin                | x    | x      | optimized targets and relocatable packages

Not GuixSD. HPC will run CentOS or similar.

> > And light containers for webservice/cloud deployments...
> 
> Is this more detail on HPC or something else entirely?

I think it is something else. More business oriented. Think Amazon.

HPC is not ready to accept containers on a large scale.

Pj.

Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[Chris Marusich]

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ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes:

> Hello,
>
> myglc2@gmail.com skribis:
>
>> Before you build these two sites, how about considering a more unified
>> approach? IMO this will be easier for users to understand and require
>> less work. Using 'GuixE' to refer to everything in '(guix) Top' you
>> could say:
>
> I think changing names to address a problem that is very real, yet not
> that terrible, would be a bit overkill.  :-)

I agree.

-- 
Chris

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Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[Chris Marusich]

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Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@elephly.net> writes:

> Hi Guix,
>
> on the website it starts right away with a list of features:
> “Liberating”, “Dependable”, and “Hackable”.  But what is this thing
> called Guix?
>
> We should add a very short paragraph above that list to say what Guix
> and GuixSD are.
>
> What do you think?

How is Guix different from other package managers?  Why is it better?
I think that's the most important thing to explain.  I've also found
that it's one of the most difficult things to explain.  I think we
should entice readers by concisely explaining that, if we can.

Perhaps the best way to do that would be to write a problem statement.
Instead of explaining what Guix is, explain what problems Guix solves.
The first chapter of Eelco Dolstra's Ph. D. thesis [1] did a fantastic
job of explaining what problems Nix solves, and by the end of that
chapter, I was really excited to learn more about Nix (and Guix) and try
it out.  In particular, the list of problems with the state of the art
in section 1.3 "Motivation" and the list of solutions that Nix offers in
section 1.5 "Contributions" were particularly concise and convincing.
Maybe we can aim for something similar on our Guix website?

Footnotes: 
[1]  https://nixos.org/~eelco/pubs/phd-thesis.pdf

-- 
Chris

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Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[myglc2]

On 01/21/2018 at 23:04 Chris Marusich writes:

> Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@elephly.net> writes:
>
>> Hi Guix,
>>
>> on the website it starts right away with a list of features:
>> “Liberating”, “Dependable”, and “Hackable”.  But what is this thing
>> called Guix?
>>
>> We should add a very short paragraph above that list to say what Guix
>> and GuixSD are.
>>
>> What do you think?
>
> How is Guix different from other package managers?  Why is it better?
> I think that's the most important thing to explain.  I've also found
> that it's one of the most difficult things to explain.  I think we
> should entice readers by concisely explaining that, if we can.

Agreed. The first step: STOP calling Guix a "package manager".  Why?
Users aren't shopping for a package manager. They either already have
one, or expect one to come with the software they are looking for.  They
will think, "I don't need one."

So calling Guix a "package manager" sets up a marketing problem like
selling transmissions to car drivers :-(

How can we avoid this?  Call it something else!  What?

Ricardo called Guix a "software environment manager". This is a better
term and we can apply it to both Guix and GuixSD ;-)

> Perhaps the best way to do that would be to write a problem statement.
> Instead of explaining what Guix is, explain what problems Guix solves.
> The first chapter of Eelco Dolstra's Ph. D. thesis [1] did a fantastic
> job of explaining what problems Nix solves, and by the end of that
> chapter, I was really excited to learn more about Nix (and Guix) and try
> it out.  In particular, the list of problems with the state of the art
> in section 1.3 "Motivation" and the list of solutions that Nix offers in
> section 1.5 "Contributions" were particularly concise and convincing.
> Maybe we can aim for something similar on our Guix website?
>
> Footnotes: 
> [1]  https://nixos.org/~eelco/pubs/phd-thesis.pdf

Agreed. If we could reduce this to a short list of problems we could
then say, "Introducing Guix/GuixSD, the first software environment
manager that solves these key problems. <list>"

WDYT? - George

Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[Pjotr Prins]

On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 11:43:12AM -0500, myglc2@gmail.com wrote:
> Agreed. The first step: STOP calling Guix a "package manager".  Why?
> Users aren't shopping for a package manager. They either already have
> one, or expect one to come with the software they are looking for.  They
> will think, "I don't need one."
> 
> So calling Guix a "package manager" sets up a marketing problem like
> selling transmissions to car drivers :-(
> 
> How can we avoid this?  Call it something else!  What?
> 
> Ricardo called Guix a "software environment manager". This is a better
> term and we can apply it to both Guix and GuixSD ;-)

I am dealing with things like

  https://github.com/openjournals/joss-reviews/issues/583#issuecomment-373621538

As the scope of the packages is much larger (in terms of #
deployments) than GuixSD I think we should take a really hard look at
how we present Guix to newcomers. That is what the front page should
address.

Maybe we should make a strong shift towards running Guix in
containers. Or create a website that treats that topic individually.
See it as a marketing gimmick.

Container use is growing rapidly and allows for leaving bare metal.
There are even routers running containers today! Containers are also
building blocks for pipelines, that is going to be huge. See, for
example the PDF at

  https://grants.nih.gov/grants/rfi/NIH-Strategic-Plan-for-Data-Science.pdf

Guix is a step up from everything else when it comes to containers.
And now we can even run GuixSD in a container ;)

Pj.

Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hello,

Chris Marusich <cmmarusich@gmail.com> skribis:

> Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@elephly.net> writes:
>
>> Hi Guix,
>>
>> on the website it starts right away with a list of features:
>> “Liberating”, “Dependable”, and “Hackable”.  But what is this thing
>> called Guix?
>>
>> We should add a very short paragraph above that list to say what Guix
>> and GuixSD are.
>>
>> What do you think?
>
> How is Guix different from other package managers?  Why is it better?

That’s what Liberating (free software), Dependable (transactional,
etc.), Hackable (it’s a Scheme API) tries to convey.

The hope was that by reading these 3 items people could tell how it
differs from APT/dpkg, Conda, or Nix.

> Perhaps the best way to do that would be to write a problem statement.
> Instead of explaining what Guix is, explain what problems Guix solves.
> The first chapter of Eelco Dolstra's Ph. D. thesis [1] did a fantastic
> job of explaining what problems Nix solves, and by the end of that
> chapter, I was really excited to learn more about Nix (and Guix) and try
> it out.  In particular, the list of problems with the state of the art
> in section 1.3 "Motivation" and the list of solutions that Nix offers in
> section 1.5 "Contributions" were particularly concise and convincing.
> Maybe we can aim for something similar on our Guix website?

The “Introduction” and “Features” sections of the manual aim to achieve
that goal, but in a “constructive” way (stating what properties it has,
rather than what properties other solutions lack.)  However, I think
it’s not that concise and it’s quite technical, so I’d keep that in the
manual rather than on the front page.

Thoughts?

Ludo’.

Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[Chris Marusich]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2249 bytes --]

ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes:

> Hello,
>
> Chris Marusich <cmmarusich@gmail.com> skribis:
>
>> Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@elephly.net> writes:
>>
>>> Hi Guix,
>>>
>>> on the website it starts right away with a list of features:
>>> “Liberating”, “Dependable”, and “Hackable”.  But what is this thing
>>> called Guix?
>>>
>>> We should add a very short paragraph above that list to say what Guix
>>> and GuixSD are.
>>>
>>> What do you think?
>>
>> How is Guix different from other package managers?  Why is it better?
>
> That’s what Liberating (free software), Dependable (transactional,
> etc.), Hackable (it’s a Scheme API) tries to convey.
>
> The hope was that by reading these 3 items people could tell how it
> differs from APT/dpkg, Conda, or Nix.

To be honest, I really like the current list of 3 items.  I think it's a
good "marketing" front page, even if perhaps it doesn't provide a
complete answer of what Guix is.  What do you think about making these
minor changes to the website (see attached).

>> Perhaps the best way to do that would be to write a problem statement.
>> Instead of explaining what Guix is, explain what problems Guix solves.
>> The first chapter of Eelco Dolstra's Ph. D. thesis [1] did a fantastic
>> job of explaining what problems Nix solves, and by the end of that
>> chapter, I was really excited to learn more about Nix (and Guix) and try
>> it out.  In particular, the list of problems with the state of the art
>> in section 1.3 "Motivation" and the list of solutions that Nix offers in
>> section 1.5 "Contributions" were particularly concise and convincing.
>> Maybe we can aim for something similar on our Guix website?
>
> The “Introduction” and “Features” sections of the manual aim to achieve
> that goal, but in a “constructive” way (stating what properties it has,
> rather than what properties other solutions lack.)  However, I think
> it’s not that concise and it’s quite technical, so I’d keep that in the
> manual rather than on the front page.
>
> Thoughts?

I agree.  Our manual is great overall.  If I can think of ways to
improve it even more, I'll submit more patches for review.

-- 
Chris

[-- Attachment #1.2: 0001-website-Clarify-the-descriptions-of-Guix-and-GuixSD.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 2971 bytes --]

From adf588a9daa73072ad3f1b39581ba5881a6cf780 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Chris Marusich <cmmarusich@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 16:31:02 -0800
Subject: [PATCH] website: Clarify the descriptions of Guix and GuixSD.

* website/apps/base/templates/home.scm: Clarify descriptions.
---
 website/apps/base/templates/home.scm | 47 +++++++++++++++++++++---------------
 1 file changed, 27 insertions(+), 20 deletions(-)

diff --git a/website/apps/base/templates/home.scm b/website/apps/base/templates/home.scm
index f7c2d1c..beb1b39 100644
--- a/website/apps/base/templates/home.scm
+++ b/website/apps/base/templates/home.scm
@@ -36,10 +36,27 @@
       (@ (class "featured-content"))
       (h2 (@ (class "a11y-offset")) "Summary")
       (ul
+       (li
+	(b "Dependable.")
+	,(link-yellow
+	  #:label "GNU Guix"
+	  #:url (manual-url "Package-Management.html"))
+	" is a "
+	,(link-yellow
+	  #:label "purely functional"
+	  #:url (manual-url "Introduction.html#index-functional-package-management"))
+	" package management tool.  In addition to standard package
+		management features, it supports transactional upgrades
+		and roll-backs, unprivileged package management, per-user profiles, "
+	,(link-yellow
+	  #:label "and more"
+	  #:url (manual-url "Features.html"))
+	".")
+
        (li
 	(b "Liberating.")
-	" The Guix System Distribution (GuixSD) is an advanced
-        distribution of the "
+	" The GNU Guix System Distribution (GuixSD) is an advanced
+	 distribution of the "
 	,(link-yellow
 	  #:label "GNU operating system"
 	  #:url (gnu-url "gnu/about-gnu.html"))
@@ -47,34 +64,24 @@
 	,(link-yellow
 	  #:label "GNU Project"
 	  #:url (gnu-url))
-	"—which respects the "
+	", with Guix at its core.  Because GuixSD is "
 	,(link-yellow
-	  #:label "freedom of computer users"
+	  #:label "FSDG"
 	  #:url (gnu-url "distros/free-system-distribution-guidelines.html"))
-	". ")
-
-       (li
-	(b "Dependable.")
-	" It comes with the "
-	,(link-yellow
-	  #:label "GNU Guix package manager"
-	  #:url (manual-url "Package-Management.html"))
-	", which in addition to standard package management features,
-        supports transactional upgrades and roll-backs, unprivileged
-        package management, per-user profiles, "
+	"-compliant, all software in the distribution"
 	,(link-yellow
-	  #:label "and more"
-	  #:url (manual-url "Features.html"))
-	".")
+	  #:label "respects your freedom"
+	  #:url (gnu-url "philosophy/free-sw.html"))
+	". ")
 
        (li
 	(b "Hackable.")
-	" It provides "
+	" Both Guix and GuixSD provide "
 	,(link-yellow
 	  #:label "Guile Scheme"
 	  #:url (gnu-url "software/guile/"))
 	" APIs, including high-level embedded domain-specific
-        languages (EDSLs) to "
+        languages (EDSLs) to declaratively "
 	,(link-yellow
 	  #:label "define packages"
 	  #:url (manual-url "Defining-Packages.html"))
-- 
2.15.1


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Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hi Chris,

Chris Marusich <cmmarusich@gmail.com> skribis:

> From adf588a9daa73072ad3f1b39581ba5881a6cf780 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
> From: Chris Marusich <cmmarusich@gmail.com>
> Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 16:31:02 -0800
> Subject: [PATCH] website: Clarify the descriptions of Guix and GuixSD.
>
> * website/apps/base/templates/home.scm: Clarify descriptions.

I’m not convinced by the changes, but that’s also because I think we’re
really fine-tuning very little text, so at some point it gets harder to
move forward.  :-)

> +	(b "Dependable.")
> +	,(link-yellow
> +	  #:label "GNU Guix"
> +	  #:url (manual-url "Package-Management.html"))
> +	" is a "
> +	,(link-yellow
> +	  #:label "purely functional"
> +	  #:url (manual-url "Introduction.html#index-functional-package-management"))
> +	" package management tool.  In addition to standard package
> +		management features, it supports transactional upgrades
> +		and roll-backs, unprivileged package management, per-user profiles, "
> +	,(link-yellow
> +	  #:label "and more"
> +	  #:url (manual-url "Features.html"))
> +	".")

It was on purpose that I did not insist on “purely functional.”  That’s
obviously the core concept, but I think it’s obscure to many (especially
in this context), whereas “transactional” may make sense for a wider
audience.

>  	(b "Hackable.")
> -	" It provides "
> +	" Both Guix and GuixSD provide "
>  	,(link-yellow
>  	  #:label "Guile Scheme"
>  	  #:url (gnu-url "software/guile/"))
>  	" APIs, including high-level embedded domain-specific
> -        languages (EDSLs) to "
> +        languages (EDSLs) to declaratively "
>  	,(link-yellow
>  	  #:label "define packages"
>  	  #:url (manual-url "Defining-Packages.html"))

I’m not sure the extra words are necessary.

Note: I’m probably biased so I’m happy if others can weigh in on these
things!

Ludo’.

Re: website: say what Guix is at the very top

[Chris Marusich]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 645 bytes --]

ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes:

> Hi Chris,
>
> Chris Marusich <cmmarusich@gmail.com> skribis:
>
>> From adf588a9daa73072ad3f1b39581ba5881a6cf780 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
>> From: Chris Marusich <cmmarusich@gmail.com>
>> Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2018 16:31:02 -0800
>> Subject: [PATCH] website: Clarify the descriptions of Guix and GuixSD.
>>
>> * website/apps/base/templates/home.scm: Clarify descriptions.
>
> I’m not convinced by the changes, but that’s also because I think we’re
> really fine-tuning very little text, so at some point it gets harder to
> move forward.  :-)

That's OK; I understand.

-- 
Chris

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