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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1678355541; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=Eltd2lnDJbkjlqwRXX6HnaNs9annVubF52bIH4fFkeQ=; b=Zk3/KRfGuzRFMI7YF6m+GZ3jewjFIPhqQ/Qko20eOxYlo+C6z8EnZwx47nYJ6lQ7rQymjL f9Ma6lwzUlqWjvl2Kun5oTwwFbRf0ylrke3Qwa/EyKTDCBFWT1np6Ze7m/9jU45E10Obmx yD1NxRm6DPSmXqtTVtal4cnIUruqAB9tTvIYgFXuCubi19PRQV2bl5kai6GNMLH0mZGNCJ kwXk4OwCE3OtRJIs5tDeF3hEHtpeIoF+sdEwmQMea21daPRbJb92WAM9YO7qZu7sEhQZNG 1WB8WUQtNlqvf1HGsSnhhYrdy+PIuOc9/PCPMaahKNsRgvwpFjz/OqNJOfWhkw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=UIJetbxQ; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1678355541; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=Ns9lXJl9rJJoLDvYz5HPWFewpt3mRpIsx3Tb4HwapDbV6mhFEd9A+G7xcLQEuvg+jVPpa5 yHXfOsZKZCyQyh8nusjL7VpQVA7Q0WK+fL+GUm5jVXl2aEgBBGJBcjT60PPAwFp5sG9HVc QN7prWMSbmGtL5xVe+i71Io0SAeR8yqP3udXZ1aOSBC46DFg8l13hTGLJn+dFAdupGurP9 bSk5zVCjhqKhLlzXM8JYbXT0pMDPauVp3ofxX3aaqQV5PRGdX4g/cnX2cSTtm4gqc/FzGX Qu0QALRLaGcobDzKKY20fXj+wBNAdt8+TgyIijgC4JPCVllbT7QjHaLQ4T76aA== Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=UIJetbxQ; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.43 X-Spam-Score: -3.43 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 7ED301DDC4 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: S62ax5cqae/e Hi Maxim, On Wed, 08 Mar 2023 at 12:05, Maxim Cournoyer w= rote: > On a side note, it would also introduce some kind of hierarchy in the > group, which I dislike. One of the things that make Guix special is > that it's pretty flat -- everybody can participate at the same level, at > least between committers). I'd rather we don't try to emulate Debian on > that point. Hierarchy already exists, as in any social group, as in any group of people collaborating. The hierarchy is currently informal. And it is not really =E2=80=9Cpretty flat=E2=80=9D because some individuals= from that group have more (informal) power than other. That=E2=80=99s not necessary = a bad thing. :-) For instance, the access to the build farms is restricted, the ability to restart Cuirass job is restricted, commit access is restricted, money spending is restricted, etc. What I see as a bad thing is the informal part. Far from me the willing of being confrontational, I just would like to point that you are somehow on the top of the =E2=80=9Chierarchy=E2=80=9D so= you see it as =E2=80=9Cpretty flat=E2=80=9D, when it is not. And if you want to exper= iment, try to spend one month using only guix-devel and guix-patches for collaborating and you will see. :-) That=E2=80=99s said, Guix is awesome! I came because technical features an= d I am still here because the community is welcoming, friendly, helping and I really enjoy the way we are collaborating altogether. I totally agree that everyone can participate and we, as a group, are trying hard to be welcoming and friendly, so that everybody can participate and/or acquire more knowledge and/or skill, and from my point of view, we try hard to take into account all the voices. By daily interactions, we are doing our best in this area =E2=80=93 even often rehashing how we can improve. And for what it is worth, I will do all my best so that this will not change. :-) Now, we, as a community of volunteers, have one problem, well, two related problems: (1) not enough people are reviewing (2) there is no =E2=80=9Cduty=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Caccountability=E2=80=9D These is becoming more apparent because Guix is growing and that=E2=80=99s a good thing. And we have to adapt our practices for a better scaling, IMHO. This =E2=80=9Cteams=E2=80=9D is somehow a proposal as an attempt to address= (1) and (2). Please, do not take me wrong with the quoted duty and accountability. Motivation by volunteers is non-fungible, for sure. That=E2=80=99s does not mean that a subgroup cannot commit for some tasks. That=E2=80=99s already = the case, guix-maintainers is committed to =E2=80=9Cduties=E2=80=9D as explaine= d by [1]. For instance, it reads =C2=AB the other responsibilities can be delegated: - Making releases. - Dealing with development and its everyday issues as well as =E2=80=A6 - Participating in [internship progam] - Organizing [events] - Taking care of Guix money =E2=80=A6 - Keeping the build farm infrastructure up - Keeping the web site up-to-date. - Looking after people =C2=BB Therefore, could you please point me who or how these responsibilities are delegated? From my point of view, =E2=80=9Cteams=E2=80=9D is an attemp= t to accomplish that delegation. Me too, I am not convinced that the heavy =E2=80=9Cbureaucracy=E2=80=9C of = Debian is something that I would like with Guix. However, there is gap between the addition of more explicit structure in Guix as =E2=80=9Cteams=E2=80=9D = is a proposal and keep the current informal structure. Cheers, simon 1: https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/gnu-guix-maintainer-collective-expands/