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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1680946928; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=D9fCUIS3kqzCCz52WGIOclaZGXxfX5vXJCM0m3a/+B8yN3kw66AOwK82vx9n3Tv1znYKYR uRSqB1Ktd50hWx0QpvKXiZtu8zG5Rb3UAv8lhoIzBChKUpnRehW9oFhNk5WsZsxQZMgDuQ bDQfoR56ycrSoys7t1xYasGUcINJN++205ec23gz28Hsr6wAyp4ntxPhoUkSW3s6tQWNWB whQII5EbJZ9RFjBXJsA2laVsyrfi+5deQZQdaGVBWc2tB3ZjNcVb67RCVEHoGqZvzn/3uC xw7ReKT7tSIXdp17StkTRFKnSckuHhEi87faLnIsC0DKvzSZ8rY/zBDB5re7wg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b="Cu39/SND"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1680946928; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=9HUy7BbrBN0reI2lgupNfFQJn3Nx8ow1/j/UghkNzts=; b=jrFjTtywYBpBSCQYus9orPoJrXX+7vRqBTWmGxFGL31skeFoveGkUcZdbymEJ+vFJCwb9n UUXvq56FTmb8QPTNVNC3fTWgEdXHSRxs4sTrhuzir9lIMHrIO22KduTTstDHMQ9xlfCjHq UHGoLwwUsNJODY5Gc7mJyEXgvW6ROHrH45Po5qCEHO/pn5jlqamGwqbQUxFi6J4TkaIHQZ L7R5Z7+AvbgnDbFnCRk82MqF3DWoqzo1rmRHESRqN0hfLHq3UZER6vSJc4qiQaD5C8JqGe jAzKeJ7s34TlSshXKtXWRF93OyLAGN16bteJZE/OK5lYAXZEvSqyfDpm1QG4tA== X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -6.45 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b="Cu39/SND"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Spam-Score: -6.45 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 7256E82A5 X-TUID: hpBhNW+1kY5M Hi, Please skip if it interferes in the discussion. :-) That=E2=80=99s just my partial understanding as a ignorant person on this topic of P2P storage system. First of all, thanks for considering the two architectures of P2P storage networks: (1) one node publishes their local content or (2) one node publishes a chunk of the global content. Between all the drawbacks and/or difficulties of (2), one corollary feature appears to me interesting: enforcing a policy for the global that allows redundancy and so never lost some data. =C3=80 la git-annex-numcopies [1]. However, I am still missing how Swarm-like could help=E2=80=A6 On Fri, 07 Apr 2023 at 22:45, Attila Lendvai wrote: > this page also has a much shorter whitepaper: > > https://www.ethswarm.org/why > > it started out as a storage layer for Ethereum, and as such one of its > main task is to store the blockchain data, but it's not limited to > that. there's nothing special about the blockchain data from this > perspective, and reflecting that, the Swarm project is not under the > Ethereum umbrella anymore. =E2=80=A6 Thanks for the pointer. Well, I do not understand how Swarm-like does not rely on some cryptocurrency, here BZZ for Swarm itself. Since Swarm-like enforces that I must store data that I do not care, then because it is a strong constraint by the system, somehow it breaks my altruism and I only would do such by being financially compensated =E2=80=93 what they implement: p.1 Swarm is a peer-to-peer network of nodes that collectively provide a decentralised storage and communication service. This system is economically self-sustaining due to a built-in incentive system which is enforced through smart contracts on the Ethereum blockchain and powered by the BZZ token. p.2 Built-in incentives seek to optimise the allocation of bandwidth and storage resources and render Swarm economically self-sustaining. Swarm nodes track their relative bandwidth contribution on each peer connection, and excess debt due to unequal consumption can be settled in BZZ. Publishers in Swarm must spend BZZ to purchase the right to write data to Swarm and prepay some rent for long term storage. p.7 As nodes relay requests and responses, they keep track of their relative consumption of bandwidth with each of their peers. Within bounds peers engage in a service-for-service exchange. However, once a limit is reached, the party in debt can either wait until their liabilities are amortised over time, or can pay by sending cheques that cash out in BZZ on the blockchain (see figure 5). [...] Nodes are financially motivated to help each in relaying messages, because each node that successfully routes a request closer to the destination earns BZZ when the request was successfully served. If that node is not storing the data itself, it pays a small amount of money to request chunks from an even closer node. By doing such trades, nodes earn a little profit when serving a request. This implies that nodes are motivated to cache chunks as, after purchasing the chunk once from a closer node, any subsequent requests for the same chunk will earn pure profit. p.8 A contract on the blockchain allows advance purchase of a postage batch for BZZ tokens. A batch entitles the owner to issue a limited number of stamps. These stamps then serve as a fiduciary signal indicating how much it is worth for a user to persist the associated content in Swarm. By using this value to prioritise which chunks to remove from the reserve first, storer nodes maximise the utility of the DISC (see figure 6). From the whitepaper: . Other said, if the underlying cryptocurrency does not have a financial value =E2=80=93 what it would be the case, IMHO, for some Swarm-like system applied to Guix =E2=80=93 then I am not convinced that this =E2=80=9Cway=E2= =80=9C to solve the free-rider problem is better (more sustainable) than other P2P system as IPFS-like, Torrent-like, GNUnet-like, etc. >> However, somehow, I am not convinced that Guix should introduce some >> mechanisms to tackle some free rider problems [3]. > > isn't the main task of every p2p storage solution to tackle the free > rider problem?=20 Yes, it is the task of P2P storage system. Is Guix one P2P storage solution? Or should Guix exploit already implemented P2P storage systems? Cheers, simom 1: https://git-annex.branchable.com/git-annex-numcopies/