From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp10.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id kP4TA3G0ymMthgAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2023 16:34:09 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp10.migadu.com with LMTPS id wO8vAnG0ymN9mAAAG6o9tA (envelope-from ) for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2023 16:34:09 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8DE7C179 for ; Fri, 20 Jan 2023 16:34:08 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pItOk-0004ap-MI; Fri, 20 Jan 2023 10:33:46 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pItOi-0004ab-Vf for guix-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2023 10:33:44 -0500 Received: from mx0.riseup.net ([198.252.153.6]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pItOg-0001zH-M0 for guix-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 20 Jan 2023 10:33:44 -0500 Received: from fews1.riseup.net (fews1-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.83]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mail.riseup.net", Issuer "R3" (not verified)) by mx0.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Nz3S33M8tz9sL9; Fri, 20 Jan 2023 15:33:39 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1674228819; bh=HBIkSu+WwhahPudw/FvEssSAz8k8i6ggTcbz7GLRPdg=; h=References:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-reply-to:From; b=QsgT+UZtNZI0DmozORBfkYHCZX0x/EIdpzbmqN10g2VsYBTkzhSSthMr0ymDj0wyB IaPJxMmiBYT84YQ72+Om6U2FOsz8PgpvEtznMzKbHU6Xkgtyb+OPQCdCXAEoua0evL vUyrDzNCe64cHT0vWZRLkeJOoJqvnKrXDciVjbG8= X-Riseup-User-ID: 1E7AE2BA5E91319A73B0CDE0EC8D5528B7426C591A213B0774498D751D61A59E Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fews1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Nz3S24dBpz5vZx; Fri, 20 Jan 2023 15:33:38 +0000 (UTC) References: <87tu0s7otg.fsf@inria.fr> <3586bd3c-2d97-ca0d-f722-be08a7440e1e@teulu.org> <87pmbaqtxr.fsf@disroot.org> From: Csepp To: Akib Azmain Turja Cc: Paul Jewell , guix-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: Packages grow, no longer fit on a =?utf-8?Q?=F0=9F=92=BE?= Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 16:30:36 +0100 In-reply-to: <87pmbaqtxr.fsf@disroot.org> Message-ID: <865yd1p6eq.fsf@riseup.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=198.252.153.6; envelope-from=raingloom@riseup.net; helo=mx0.riseup.net X-Spam_score_int: -26 X-Spam_score: -2.7 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, PDS_BTC_ID=0.141, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1674228848; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=fBt6J0ARVKLG8Bp5NPAH0QpsKNiT+1a5CRRVXMdUf8YC2OltI1zlVEs3VlfsSVOji/psw7 IgffM2/1wppS/BpMIlrA5IqeXl+W0XQKxlDqlBHynnf/scC4GsnO4NDnWkUhUMQxPoq4DK EITI/ayZPfZdzdMqC79lddl0HKPxkWzaEAftUol+DeNbUMuASO0R1BfH77sNiTcvWObCCp pqud7l0Woj8BRf1FbUJThfqSXlV3R55gXwHo0r5ztG6Xny6mT/nTqOchkUm4W4qCzsD1wM +sr87D0tPM8qdJWxR04k8Q2S6EvsLPeW2bZPwLjr/LTdEHv0N2kW/N6CKDJStA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=QsgT+UZt; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1674228848; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=5foQR79VGYfckULPLdzDjA7chO6lddXT+lQXGnf6aCo=; b=j9weij+6HokIaZ683veyrCGVoftVBzVubMKWWIcOuPXo4orEeiPaCfjwBjqu6el2VjbdLd BmhxUq0lG7cYIgvuvuAWCJx0SMlKn52b+cVVzJu4x2BIDmCKkI6Lyv/WqwMmQgpcb0X6IZ kYmn/QhNljTvxoJ5ovRPnTDTULgmsVL7QYcGm5NvcNMSQ1PzbcxPY6do07r7NgGu9bDDbx Ckbd9WLMnnWp7onGtyXun+IkVmYt8Ejjmdb1l1MgjVaZa/Jh70qpI0jlmNy35h/YzL5BLC B0Y1UvUudeCgL9RCf7VawWg9MROJ7c5i4c4wnjKQ8/KI0QM6ldb8YCHLP1Ptfw== X-Spam-Score: -6.24 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: B8DE7C179 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=QsgT+UZt; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -6.24 X-TUID: Tvbinp8RG9PK Akib Azmain Turja writes: > [[PGP Signed Part:Undecided]] > Paul Jewell via "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System > distribution." writes: > >> Evening all, >> >> On 14/01/2023 23:07, Ludovic Court=C3=A8s wrote: >>> Hello! >>> Over the course of a few years, the size of our packages has >>> apparently >>> kept growing. Example: >>> --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- >>> $ guix time-machine --commit=3Dv1.2.0 -- size emacs >>> store item total = self >>> /gnu/store/118xpdazyylxa1rlc68h9lmh38vhxrb4-llvm-10.0.0 210.= 8 139.3 16.2% >>> /gnu/store/1qmd9achfkm1njzxf8hi86q53pmy9sxk-mesa-20.0.7 369.= 2 131.3 15.3% >>> /gnu/store/d83hc7cqgnhl1vlz1rv4ibkvaqaq2g35-emacs-27.1 859.= 7 106.2 12.4% >>> /gnu/store/18hp7flyb3yid3yp49i6qcdq0sbi5l1n-guile-3.0.2 132.= 8 53.2 6.2% >>> /gnu/store/9lckq1194qcy4a7kv8bihagd58shj7yr-gtk+-3.24.20 723.= 7 49.0 5.7% >>> /gnu/store/qizplwwgqwyq6qmz1i6jlaib5kgzrgwq-icu4c-66.1 110.= 2 38.1 4.4% >>> /gnu/store/fa6wj5bxkj5ll1d7292a70knmyl7a0cr-glibc-2.31 38.= 4 36.7 4.3% >>> [=E2=80=A6] >>> total: 859.7 MiB >>> $ guix time-machine --commit=3Dv1.3.0 -- size emacs >>> store item total = self >>> /gnu/store/g3idjpqsp2p2d163qfzskxj4k58nrx7f-llvm-11.0.0 220.= 0 148.6 16.9% >>> /gnu/store/jf269s6clr6r57p8v5c3c1qkyra6apq2-mesa-20.2.4 389.= 1 141.6 16.1% >>> /gnu/store/7nlq2v4000pw8vgj3m4vrwz072ib58xh-emacs-27.2 880.= 5 106.4 12.1% >>> /gnu/store/18hp7flyb3yid3yp49i6qcdq0sbi5l1n-guile-3.0.2 132.= 8 53.2 6.0% >>> /gnu/store/czf23hay13pp25yzrb4yq3n4gcri5r70-gtk+-3.24.24 744.= 3 49.1 5.6% >>> /gnu/store/2wqjj3mkqdvsvksndr2hpjpi7qqwi7kr-icu4c-66.1 110.= 2 38.1 4.3% >>> /gnu/store/fa6wj5bxkj5ll1d7292a70knmyl7a0cr-glibc-2.31 38.= 4 36.7 4.2% >>> [=E2=80=A6] >>> total: 880.5 MiB >>> $ guix time-machine --commit=3Dv1.4.0 -- size emacs >>> store item total = self >>> /gnu/store/i11jmrc90drpx9mc6cyb6s4pjny91qx6-emacs-28.2 1592.= 7 250.6 15.7% >>> /gnu/store/sdzfljm6san79pqiy42yp0nzmkr2bafc-mesa-21.3.8 411.= 6 169.6 10.6% >>> /gnu/store/6pdzpmxg5afzss6dlivq8z84sfa31x22-llvm-11.0.0 221.= 5 149.5 9.4% >>> /gnu/store/lphzb1z0r4kbb453rsvnw7msrxxzp5r7-libgccjit-10.3.0 244.= 8 128.5 8.1% >>> /gnu/store/pfas3c4lhr1jwkj2gl0yx8dg4xjjlp4r-mozjs-91.13.0 261.= 2 65.4 4.1% >>> /gnu/store/hy6abswwv4d89zp464fw52z65fkzr7h5-perl-5.34.0 147.= 7 58.6 3.7% >>> /gnu/store/zyqimpkmpffc24nwwqp46cicj8ss85y5-binutils-2.37 126.= 0 54.4 3.4% >>> /gnu/store/cnfsv9ywaacyafkqdqsv2ry8f01yr7a9-guile-3.0.7 129.= 1 52.0 3.3% >>> /gnu/store/4aq7hw017s9ihpm1rxpwfz28c80569z9-gtk+-3.24.30 1002.= 2 48.6 3.1% >>> /gnu/store/vaxkf8cbc7slgc3ikm5qr3815wih93w8-ghostscript-with-cups-9.54.= 0 219.1 39.1 2.5% >>> /gnu/store/bjycxjjkp1da53ijsa4hfdrz9mcgg55h-icu4c-69.1 110.= 7 38.0 2.4% >>> /gnu/store/ayc9r7162rphy4zjw8ch01pmyh214h82-glibc-2.33 76.= 6 36.6 2.3% >>> [=E2=80=A6] >>> total: 1592.7 MiB >>> --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- >>> I think something went wrong here. :-) >>> In particular with Emacs itself (due to JIT + dependency on >>> libgccjit, >>> Binutils, etc.?) and with GTK+ (due to mozjs in polkit?). >>> And then MESA and LLVM have always been problematically big. >>> We should do better. I mean, it=E2=80=99s just a text editor, isn=E2= =80=99t it? >>> Ludo=E2=80=99. >>>=20 >> >> Please forgive my ignorance if I have missed anything but: >> >> - does anyone actually install from a CD these days? > > I don't know, but I'd just use a pendrive if I need an external storage. > (If I don't need, I'd just use a 2 GB HDD partition, which I made just > for very purpose. ;) ) > >> - Can an ISO be bigger than a CD then be installed on a memory stick? > > Yes. > >> >> It strikes me that this is like King Canute holding back the >> tide. Package size growth is pretty inevitable, and even if work now >> can bring the size down to that of a CD, the same problem will occur >> in the not too distant future. >> > > But we should really try to keep them low. > >> Is it really a problem? > > YES!!!!!!!!! > > Big packages means, it takes more space. If a package grows by 700 MB, > installed on 10,000 computers, ~70 TB (70,000,000 MB) is wasted. You > could use that precious storage to save your dad's photo, your favorite > music, your child's video calling you "daddy/mummy" for the first time, > etc. You would need to get more storage for that storing those > invaluable things, so you would need more storage devices. When you buy > more storage, the demand of increases, and therefore the manufacturing > of storage devices increase. The more devices are manufactured, the > more carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gas emission. > > Again, if the packages is downloaded 100 times every day, ~70 GB (70000 > MB) of bandwidth is wasted every day. Someone on the network could use > that to do some more important thing, like video calling a relative > living far away. Moreover, it takes time to get the extra 700 MB for > everyone. Assuming it takes 8 minutes on average, ~13.33 hours (800 > minutes) of time is wasted everyday. We have limited time in our lives, > we shouldn't waste the time. This extra ~70 GB of transmission means > more load on the network, more load on the network devices, and > therefore more power consumption. The more power consumption, the more > greenhouse gas emission, since we're fossil fuel dependent. If your > country uses nuclear power, the extra nuclear waste is a threat for the > environment. > > The more greenhouse gas, the more greenhouse effect, the more global > warming, the more climate change. You will just destroy the earth for > future yourself and the future generation. What will you answer to > them? > >> Please educate me! :) > > It's my pleasure to make someone aware. > I hope this was enough. :) > If not, just ask! > >> >> -- >> Paul >> >> Well said. Gonna add to this that developers are overwhelmingly from privileged backgrounds. Just because we don't have a lot of users on the mailing list who have to use satellite internet on ancient laptops does not mean those (potential) users are not out there and wouldn't benefit from our distro not being a bloated mess. Which sadly it kind of is currently. I wholeheartedly recommend trying to use it on an old netbook or an armhf device from time to time. Like others have said: if you want to develop efficient software, use a slow machine. :)