Guix System video review on YouTube

Guix System video review on YouTube

[Jonathan Brielmaier]

Hi fellow guix hackers,

Guix System got a video review on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKsXecNJ_nE

As it's in German and was quite a little bit negative (title: "Guix
System distribution - a disaster"), I watched it and noted every issue
he stumbled across.

Although the reviewer was not really happy with the Guix System
distribution, he was quite pleased with the package manager. So he would
recommend his viewers to try Guix on a foreign distro, but not our distro.

For the issues I could reproduce, I already filed bugs:
---
XFCE: web browser -> choose preferred application, no browser preinstalled
  -> http://issues.guix.gnu.org/issue/40880
website: http://guix.gnu.org/screenshots/virtual-machine/ screenshot
shows os-config.scm people search for it, but can't find it, because its
named configuration.scm not os-config.scm
  -> http://issues.guix.gnu.org/issue/40882
thunar: Browse Network -> failed to open
  -> http://issues.guix.gnu.org/issue/40884
thunar: sftp does not work, as well as in pcmanfm-qt
  -> http://issues.guix.gnu.org/issue/40885

Some bugs are only reproducible when you run the Guix QEMU image
(1.1.0). When you install XFCE via the installer, they don't appear.
That's strange.
---
thunar: Icons ^ and down/home are missing
XFCE: no network-manager installed by default (seems not so important on
a QEMU image)

He mentioned lots of other stuff, which feels more like
enhancements/changes and not like bugs. So here is an (incomplete) list
of his findings:
---
* There is no /etc/os-release file. I think it was proposed a while ago,
but the patch was rejected.
* When starting Icecat for the first time, it show 6 top sites,
including trisquel.info and gnu.org, but not guix.gnu.org :)
* While installing packages via `guix install` you can't scroll in the
terminal, you always get reset to the bottom.
* For users coming from other init systems it's hard to find the herd
services. Maybe aliases for `service` or `systemctl`.
-> network-manager-applet: after installing how to start the network
manager service? As suggested by the UI of nm-applet ("NetworkManager
not running").
* guix show/search does not show if a package is installed.
* guix package -I does not show the packaged installed via the
config.scm/services, this can be very confusing. How can you show all
installed packages?
* `guix search ... | less can be confusing at the beginning.
* Finding firefox is little difficult as it's named Icecat. Maybe we can
create a dummy package which then links to the icecat package.
* Guix has multiple plasma/KDE applications but not the KDE/plasma
desktop itself. It's not yet packaged.
* Multi user package concept not clear (root as different packages then
normal user).
* XFCE: has no video/music player installed by default.

Good night
Jonathan

Re: Guix System video review on YouTube

[Jan Nieuwenhuizen]

Jonathan Brielmaier writes:

> Guix System got a video review on YouTube:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKsXecNJ_nE

> Although the reviewer was not really happy with the Guix System
> distribution, he was quite pleased with the package manager. So he would
> recommend his viewers to try Guix on a foreign distro, but not our distro.
>
> For the issues I could reproduce, I already filed bugs:

That's great.  Are you planning on leaving a reaction, maybe something
like: Thanks for the extensive testing, I filed bugs for the issues you
found here => ...

janneke

-- 
Jan Nieuwenhuizen <janneke@gnu.org> | GNU LilyPond http://lilypond.org
Freelance IT http://JoyofSource.com | Avatar® http://AvatarAcademy.com

Re: Guix System video review on YouTube

[zimoun]

Hi Jonathan,

Thank you for translating the feedback.
Because watching without understand German feels like "Guix is so cool!" ;-)


On Mon, 27 Apr 2020 at 00:34, Jonathan Brielmaier
<jonathan.brielmaier@web.de> wrote:

> * There is no /etc/os-release file. I think it was proposed a while ago,
> but the patch was rejected.

Naive question: what is useful for?
And what does it mean on rolling-release distro?


> * While installing packages via `guix install` you can't scroll in the
> terminal, you always get reset to the bottom.

I missed what it mean. Could you quickly extend a bit?


> * guix show/search does not show if a package is installed.

Installed where? In which profile?
I am not sure that "installed" make sense at the level of "guix show/search".

From my point of view, it could be interesting to know if the package
is already available in the store. Basically, if "guix build
--dry-run" completes all the recursive phases without download or
build. For a couple of packages (guix show), it is doable but it is
too much expensive for "guix search".

WDYT?


> * `guix search ... | less can be confusing at the beginning.

There is room of improvements for "guix search". ;-)

There is 3 behaviours
 1. return the N packages fitting the screen size (current: default)
 2. display all the list in PAGER (current: |less)
 3. display all the list in stdout (current: |cat)

The feature request is: be able to configure which behaviour by
default for "guix search". Maybe via an environment variable.
(as discussed elsewhere by Ricardo and Tobias, if I understand correctly)


WDYT?


What user expect by default is complicated and depends on the users
themself. :-)
For example, I always pipe with 'recsel' because coming from Debian
and used to 'aptitude', I only want the name of the package and then
show more if I need; i.e.,

   guix search crypto library | recel -C -P name
   # optional: time to time I pipe the result with 'grep'
   guix show libb2

Well, I find more confusing that "guix search" displays
name,synopsis,description,etc. than to pipe. So, taste and colour...
;-)


> * Multi user package concept not clear (root as different packages then
> normal user).

This is related to expectation about "installed", IMHO.


Thank you for the feedback. Really interesting!

Cheers,
simon

Re: Guix System video review on YouTube

[Jonathan Brielmaier]

On 27.04.20 11:08, zimoun wrote:
>> * There is no /etc/os-release file. I think it was proposed a while ago,
>> but the patch was rejected.
>
> Naive question: what is useful for?
> And what does it mean on rolling-release distro?

If you log into a system, its a canonical way to find out which system
it is. It does fit also on rolling-release distros, we show the output
the results from `guix system describe` there.

>> * While installing packages via `guix install` you can't scroll in the
>> terminal, you always get reset to the bottom.
>
> I missed what it mean. Could you quickly extend a bit?

$ echo "hello"
hello
$ guix install emacs

Then while installing emacs, try to reach the hello. It will be tricky
as every new output line from `guix install emacs` will reset you to the
bottom of your terminal. That's annoying.

>> * guix show/search does not show if a package is installed.
>
> Installed where? In which profile?
> I am not sure that "installed" make sense at the level of "guix show/search".

It definitely does. It could show packages installed to the profile,
such coming from the config.scm etc.

>> * `guix search ... | less can be confusing at the beginning.
>
> There is room of improvements for "guix search". ;-)
>
> There is 3 behaviours
>  1. return the N packages fitting the screen size (current: default)
>  2. display all the list in PAGER (current: |less)
>  3. display all the list in stdout (current: |cat)
>
> The feature request is: be able to configure which behaviour by
> default for "guix search". Maybe via an environment variable.
> (as discussed elsewhere by Ricardo and Tobias, if I understand correctly)
>
>
> WDYT?

To be honest I would like the search to behave more like `guix package
-A`. Then we don't need this `less` thing. And we could add something
like `guix search --expanded` which behaves like the current search.

>
> What user expect by default is complicated and depends on the users
> themself. :-)
> For example, I always pipe with 'recsel' because coming from Debian
> and used to 'aptitude', I only want the name of the package and then
> show more if I need; i.e.,
>
>    guix search crypto library | recel -C -P name
>    # optional: time to time I pipe the result with 'grep'
>    guix show libb2
>
> Well, I find more confusing that "guix search" displays
> name,synopsis,description,etc. than to pipe. So, taste and colour...
> ;-)

I don't think a proper search is something against KISS. And people are
lazy, I don't want to type in some "| foo" stuff.

$ zypper search vim | wc -l
84
$ guix package -A vim | wc -l
22
$ guix search vim | less
828 lines and you have to search again in less because you are overwhelmed

So I would propose an interface like:
$ guix search vim
| Name          | Synopsis                       | Version  | Outputs |
+---------------+--------------------------------+----------+---------+
| vim           | Text editor based on vi        | 8.2.0411 | out     |
| vim-airline   | ...
[...]

The the search command would fulfill it's function by giving you an
overview about the available options.

>> * Multi user package concept not clear (root as different packages then
>> normal user).
>
> This is related to expectation about "installed", IMHO.

Yes. But can be confusing for all the people coming from traditional
package managers where root and user share the same packages.

Re: Guix System video review on YouTube

[Efraim Flashner]

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On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 11:08:47AM +0200, zimoun wrote:
> Hi Jonathan,
> 
> Thank you for translating the feedback.
> Because watching without understand German feels like "Guix is so cool!" ;-)
> 
> 
> On Mon, 27 Apr 2020 at 00:34, Jonathan Brielmaier
> <jonathan.brielmaier@web.de> wrote:
> 
> > * There is no /etc/os-release file. I think it was proposed a while ago,
> > but the patch was rejected.
> 
> Naive question: what is useful for?
> And what does it mean on rolling-release distro?
> 

I don't remember why I originally suggested it but I have it up and
running on my machines. At this point I use it mostly to try to remember
if mail goes to bug-guix or guix-bug.

(ins)efraim@E5400 ~$ cat /etc/os-release
NAME="Guix System"
PRETTY_NAME="Guix System"
VERSION="1.1.0-1.7dd0539"
VERSION_ID="1.1"
ID=guix
HOME_URL="https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/"
SUPPORT_URL="https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/help/"
BUG_REPORT_URL="mailto:bug-guix@gnu.org"

https://gitlab.com/Efraim/guix-config/-/blob/master/config/os-release.scm

-- 
Efraim Flashner   <efraim@flashner.co.il>   אפרים פלשנר
GPG key = A28B F40C 3E55 1372 662D  14F7 41AA E7DC CA3D 8351
Confidentiality cannot be guaranteed on emails sent or received unencrypted

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Re: Guix System video review on YouTube

[Danny Milosavljevic]

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Hi,

On Mon, 27 Apr 2020 00:32:27 +0200
Jonathan Brielmaier <jonathan.brielmaier@web.de> wrote:

> XFCE: no network-manager installed by default (seems not so important on
> a QEMU image)

Yeah, but it would be nice if we could warn the user if he tries to
install some package manually (using guix install) that would require a
service to work, the latter of which we would have anyway.

We could mention in the description of the package that there is a service
and people ought to really use that.

Maybe we could even extend guix lint to periodically traverse all Guix
service types for default packages and then check whether the warning is
in the desciption of those packages.

Very few other distributions make the distinction of service vs package.
I think the distinction is good to have, but still some kind of warning
would be nice if the service is missing in the os config.

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Re: Guix System video review on YouTube

[zimoun]

On Mon, 27 Apr 2020 at 12:11, Jonathan Brielmaier
<jonathan.brielmaier@web.de> wrote:

> >> * While installing packages via `guix install` you can't scroll in the
> >> terminal, you always get reset to the bottom.
> >
> > I missed what it mean. Could you quickly extend a bit?
>
> $ echo "hello"
> hello
> $ guix install emacs
>
> Then while installing emacs, try to reach the hello. It will be tricky
> as every new output line from `guix install emacs` will reset you to the
> bottom of your terminal. That's annoying.

Does not it depend on the terminal emulator?


> >> * guix show/search does not show if a package is installed.
> >
> > Installed where? In which profile?
> > I am not sure that "installed" make sense at the level of "guix show/search".
>
> It definitely does. It could show packages installed to the profile,
> such coming from the config.scm etc.

I am not using Guix System so I do not have config.scm.

Well, you propose that to loop over all the user profiles (i.e., "guix
package --list-profiles) to check if it is installed in one of them,
right?
I am not convinced it is useful.
Create a new profile and install what I need is cheap so I do not see
why it could be useful to know if the package is already installed or
not. If it is, nothing to be done; if not it is installed where I need
it.
However, what is useful is to know if the item already exist or not in
the store, IMHO.

When "guix install vim", for example the package 'tcsh' goes in the
store but is not considered "installed" by the profile say
'~/.guix-profile'. Therefore, does "guix show tcsh" display
'installed' or 'not installed'?

Because of the profiles -- and I am even not talking about grafts -- I
am not sure that "installed" make sense at the level of "guix
show/search". ;-)
There is too much corner cases, IMHO.


> >> * `guix search ... | less can be confusing at the beginning.
> >
> > There is room of improvements for "guix search". ;-)
> >
> > There is 3 behaviours
> >  1. return the N packages fitting the screen size (current: default)
> >  2. display all the list in PAGER (current: |less)
> >  3. display all the list in stdout (current: |cat)
> >
> > The feature request is: be able to configure which behaviour by
> > default for "guix search". Maybe via an environment variable.
> > (as discussed elsewhere by Ricardo and Tobias, if I understand correctly)
> >
> >
> > WDYT?
>
> To be honest I would like the search to behave more like `guix package
> -A`. Then we don't need this `less` thing. And we could add something
> like `guix search --expanded` which behaves like the current search.

I agree.
There is room of improvement about "guix search".

Some time ago, I also proposed to have something like: "--format"
(inspired by "git log --format=")

   guix search vim --format="%name %synopsis"
   guix search vim --format="%name \n %license \n"
   guix search crypto library --format=full
etc.

It should be also used by "guix show" and we could even imagine by
"guix package -A".

Well, as one said: patches welcome. :-)



> $ zypper search vim | wc -l
> 84
> $ guix package -A vim | wc -l
> 22
> $ guix search vim | less
> 828 lines and you have to search again in less because you are overwhelmed

I do not know 'zypper', only 'aptitude' of Debian. :-)

And there is a big difference between "guix search" and such tools:
the relevance scoring.
Well, "guix search" does not sort alphanumerically by name but sort by
relevance depending on the query.

The order is not predictable. Sometimes we want to order by relevance
(for discoverability), sometimes not. Therefore, it should be possible
to order by any keys than the relevance (using alphanumerical
ordering)


> So I would propose an interface like:
> $ guix search vim
> | Name          | Synopsis                       | Version  | Outputs |
> +---------------+--------------------------------+----------+---------+
> | vim           | Text editor based on vi        | 8.2.0411 | out     |
> | vim-airline   | ...
> [...]
>
> The the search command would fulfill it's function by giving you an
> overview about the available options.

I agree as explained above. :-)
Room of improvements for "guix search". :-)


> >> * Multi user package concept not clear (root as different packages then
> >> normal user).
> >
> > This is related to expectation about "installed", IMHO.
>
> Yes. But can be confusing for all the people coming from traditional
> package managers where root and user share the same packages.

Yes shifting is always difficult. :-)


Cheers,
simon

Re: Guix System video review on YouTube

[Bengt Richter]

Hi zimoun, Jonathan,

On +2020-04-27 14:44:08 +0200, zimoun wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Apr 2020 at 12:11, Jonathan Brielmaier
> <jonathan.brielmaier@web.de> wrote:
> 
> > >> * While installing packages via `guix install` you can't scroll in the
> > >> terminal, you always get reset to the bottom.
> > >
> > > I missed what it mean. Could you quickly extend a bit?
> >
> > $ echo "hello"
> > hello
> > $ guix install emacs
> >
> > Then while installing emacs, try to reach the hello. It will be tricky
> > as every new output line from `guix install emacs` will reset you to the
> > bottom of your terminal. That's annoying.
> 
> Does not it depend on the terminal emulator?
>
Yes, I think this is an example of how answering the question
"What code shall we modify/add to solve this usability annoyance?"
can affect system architecture, positively or negatively.

You could have guix fork the install into a thread that outputs to and scrolls
the uppper half of the screen, while wrapping your terminal cli so it keeps
to the bottom half, but I think that is a wrong solution.

OTOH there could be a --progress=... option so you could end the line with '&'
and continue your shell interaction. Simple options might direct output
to another tty or a file, with \r...line...\r lines stripped until \r?\n,
or pipe to whatever (could be a wayland client that makes a status line window on
top and filters the stream for interesting progress items to present -- if
that's available -- but guix doesn't need to know what's on the other end
of that optional progress report pipe, so it. KISS, avoid needing to know :)

Or with a terminal emulation app like tilix, it's easy to run several things
in split or overlaid terminal windows, doing whatever.

> 
> > >> * guix show/search does not show if a package is installed.
> > >
> > > Installed where? In which profile?
> > > I am not sure that "installed" make sense at the level of "guix show/search".
> >
> > It definitely does. It could show packages installed to the profile,
> > such coming from the config.scm etc.
> 
> I am not using Guix System so I do not have config.scm.
> 
> Well, you propose that to loop over all the user profiles (i.e., "guix
> package --list-profiles) to check if it is installed in one of them,
> right?
> I am not convinced it is useful.
> Create a new profile and install what I need is cheap so I do not see
> why it could be useful to know if the package is already installed or
> not. If it is, nothing to be done; if not it is installed where I need
> it.
> However, what is useful is to know if the item already exist or not in
> the store, IMHO.
> 
> When "guix install vim", for example the package 'tcsh' goes in the
> store but is not considered "installed" by the profile say
> '~/.guix-profile'. Therefore, does "guix show tcsh" display
> 'installed' or 'not installed'?
> 
> Because of the profiles -- and I am even not talking about grafts -- I
> am not sure that "installed" make sense at the level of "guix
> show/search". ;-)
> There is too much corner cases, IMHO.
> 
> 
> > >> * `guix search ... | less can be confusing at the beginning.
> > >
> > > There is room of improvements for "guix search". ;-)
> > >
> > > There is 3 behaviours
> > >  1. return the N packages fitting the screen size (current: default)
> > >  2. display all the list in PAGER (current: |less)
> > >  3. display all the list in stdout (current: |cat)
> > >
> > > The feature request is: be able to configure which behaviour by
> > > default for "guix search". Maybe via an environment variable.
> > > (as discussed elsewhere by Ricardo and Tobias, if I understand correctly)
> > >
> > >
> > > WDYT?
> >
> > To be honest I would like the search to behave more like `guix package
> > -A`. Then we don't need this `less` thing. And we could add something
> > like `guix search --expanded` which behaves like the current search.
> 
> I agree.
> There is room of improvement about "guix search".
> 
> Some time ago, I also proposed to have something like: "--format"
> (inspired by "git log --format=")
> 
>    guix search vim --format="%name %synopsis"
>    guix search vim --format="%name \n %license \n"
>    guix search crypto library --format=full
> etc.
>

For alternative formatting, I like the convention used by lsblk and ps
of specifying field/data names as -o,field,another,etc to select how and what
to display. I'd guess there's some FLOSS code in lsblk that could be re-used by guix.

> It should be also used by "guix show" and we could even imagine by
> "guix package -A".
> 
> Well, as one said: patches welcome. :-)
> 
> 
> 
> > $ zypper search vim | wc -l
> > 84
> > $ guix package -A vim | wc -l
> > 22
> > $ guix search vim | less
> > 828 lines and you have to search again in less because you are overwhelmed
> 
> I do not know 'zypper', only 'aptitude' of Debian. :-)
> 
> And there is a big difference between "guix search" and such tools:
> the relevance scoring.
> Well, "guix search" does not sort alphanumerically by name but sort by
> relevance depending on the query.
> 
> The order is not predictable. Sometimes we want to order by relevance
> (for discoverability), sometimes not. Therefore, it should be possible
> to order by any keys than the relevance (using alphanumerical
> ordering)
> 
> 
> > So I would propose an interface like:
> > $ guix search vim
> > | Name          | Synopsis                       | Version  | Outputs |
> > +---------------+--------------------------------+----------+---------+
> > | vim           | Text editor based on vi        | 8.2.0411 | out     |
> > | vim-airline   | ...
> > [...]
> >

This is rather similar to debian dpkg -l '*vim*' output:
(that's an ls '*vim*' kind of glob expr, BTW.)
--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge/Hold
| Status=Not/Inst/Conf-files/Unpacked/halF-conf/Half-inst/trig-aWait/Trig-pend
|/ Err?=(none)/Reinst-required (Status,Err: uppercase=bad)
||/ Name           Version      Architecture Description
+++-==============-============-============-==================================================
un  vim            <none>       <none>       (no description available)
un  vim-athena     <none>       <none>       (no description available)
ii  vim-common     2:8.1.0875-5 all          Vi IMproved - Common files
un  vim-gnome      <none>       <none>       (no description available)
un  vim-gtk        <none>       <none>       (no description available)
un  vim-gtk3       <none>       <none>       (no description available)
un  vim-nox        <none>       <none>       (no description available)
ii  vim-tiny       2:8.1.0875-5 amd64        Vi IMproved - enhanced vi editor - compact version
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
you can obviously grep ^ii to see what's installed only,
or grep -v ^un to keep the headers with the ii's

> > The the search command would fulfill it's function by giving you an
> > overview about the available options.
> 
> I agree as explained above. :-)
> Room of improvements for "guix search". :-)
> 
> 
> > >> * Multi user package concept not clear (root as different packages then
> > >> normal user).
> > >
> > > This is related to expectation about "installed", IMHO.
> >
> > Yes. But can be confusing for all the people coming from traditional
> > package managers where root and user share the same packages.
> 
> Yes shifting is always difficult. :-)
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> simon
> 

-- 
Regards,
Bengt Richter

Re: Guix System video review on YouTube

[raingloom]

On Mon, 27 Apr 2020 12:11:05 +0200
Jonathan Brielmaier <jonathan.brielmaier@web.de> wrote:

> $ echo "hello"
> hello
> $ guix install emacs
> 
> Then while installing emacs, try to reach the hello. It will be tricky
> as every new output line from `guix install emacs` will reset you to
> the bottom of your terminal. That's annoying.
> 

This is not related to the distribution, it's a terminal emulator
default. The behavior is the same in every other distribution I've used.
If they think this is a bad default, they should write on the
terminal emulator's bug tracker.

But then again, you usually want new (possibly quite important)
messages to catch the user's attention, so I'd say it's a good default.

Anyways, the option is trivial to change in the settings. You don't
even have to look too hard.

> So I would propose an interface like:
> $ guix search vim
> | Name          | Synopsis                       | Version  | Outputs
> |
> +---------------+--------------------------------+----------+---------+
> | vim           | Text editor based on vi        | 8.2.0411 | out
> | | vim-airline   | ... [...]

Please don't, ASCII formatting always messes things up. Use the
terminal for text. If you want a more visual package manager, don't use
a CLI tool. A proper GUI will be more accessible.

As one example, ASCII formatting makes screen readers a lot harder to
use.

Re: Guix System video review on YouTube

[Bengt Richter]

On +2020-04-28 02:32:39 +0200, raingloom wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Apr 2020 12:11:05 +0200
> Jonathan Brielmaier <jonathan.brielmaier@web.de> wrote:
> 
> > $ echo "hello"
> > hello
> > $ guix install emacs
> > 
> > Then while installing emacs, try to reach the hello. It will be tricky
> > as every new output line from `guix install emacs` will reset you to
> > the bottom of your terminal. That's annoying.
> > 
> 
> This is not related to the distribution, it's a terminal emulator
> default. The behavior is the same in every other distribution I've used.
> If they think this is a bad default, they should write on the
> terminal emulator's bug tracker.
> 
> But then again, you usually want new (possibly quite important)
> messages to catch the user's attention, so I'd say it's a good default.
> 
> Anyways, the option is trivial to change in the settings. You don't
> even have to look too hard.
> 
> > So I would propose an interface like:
> > $ guix search vim
> > | Name          | Synopsis                       | Version  | Outputs
> > |
> > +---------------+--------------------------------+----------+---------+
> > | vim           | Text editor based on vi        | 8.2.0411 | out
> > | | vim-airline   | ... [...]
> 
> Please don't, ASCII formatting always messes things up. Use the
> terminal for text. If you want a more visual package manager, don't use

To me it looks like he *is* using a terminal to get the above :)
(or faking it from some re-purposed console cli sql output snippet?)

> a CLI tool. A proper GUI will be more accessible.
>

By "proper" you mean browser-presented html/javascript ? ;-)

> As one example, ASCII formatting makes screen readers a lot harder to
> use.

I don't think that has to be so :)

> 

-- 
Regards,
Bengt Richter

Re: Guix System video review on YouTube

[Jonathan Brielmaier]

On 28.04.20 13:04, Bengt Richter wrote:
>>> So I would propose an interface like:
>>> $ guix search vim
>>> | Name          | Synopsis                       | Version  | Outputs
>>> |
>>> +---------------+--------------------------------+----------+---------+
>>> | vim           | Text editor based on vi        | 8.2.0411 | out
>>> | | vim-airline   | ... [...]
>>
>> Please don't, ASCII formatting always messes things up. Use the
>> terminal for text. If you want a more visual package manager, don't use
>
> To me it looks like he *is* using a terminal to get the above :)
> (or faking it from some re-purposed console cli sql output snippet?)

I did wrote it directly to my mail client as a visualization of my idea.