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Sun, 27 Oct 2024 10:47:28 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=elenq.tech; s=soverin1; t=1730026048; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:autocrypt:autocrypt; bh=Rv2K3o8r9GhHdlRQKccxwTbT3ORHk4cbw5iDo9ow1Ic=; b=fiZrm6rBgp76okSx6uYWCZxClDWG2VDgisRoir51b+mAiOc13tMz+3iYs3MG0qd5O5nAKx 328CIJLeF1Cl5BgaW+JuzvZeAJPY+IMjfeSaA53PhbWia3LYjA+F5vKO2mpfNqcvJ/MIBd yO2ydMjkwV4uzG+kKCv6B1o+SzTy+QzoZY1ZjR0r7oZn46s99Fnsv/EZKttueEBteNbb6b RlxpuVpVcSW6oVO3Ht24VN4xcMdX4iyrUZ7ZkwNn1I6mgHgFdgfvW5uU1GhpaFdcSNsgdE ATB2msWqHqm5Il8pKQDXVJKL0Ff468wiuj1AAAwHdU0Bxjo+GqoRrZclsE+XXg== Message-ID: <5e7b06af-96f4-4264-a67f-7b8914b3eab1@elenq.tech> Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2024 11:47:27 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Guix (and Guile's) promise, and how to (hopefully) get there To: indieterminacy Cc: Juliana Sims , guix-devel@gnu.org, suhailsingh247@gmail.com References: <02559f63-35e6-4159-9d4c-e1d423aad3be@elenq.tech> <8b58064321ae06543061ffaa843e4267@libre.brussels> Content-Language: en-US, es-ES, eu From: Ekaitz Zarraga Autocrypt: addr=ekaitz@elenq.tech; 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charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spampanel-Class: ham Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.233.34.30; envelope-from=ekaitz@elenq.tech; helo=dane.soverin.net X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -1.10 X-Spam-Score: -1.10 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 4A568197E1 X-Migadu-Scanner: mx12.migadu.com X-TUID: ZS5Ic4HXqWmE Hi, On 2024-10-27 11:00, indieterminacy wrote: > I think a useful measurement of any community is the diversity within it. I do think we are a pretty diverse group. But it all comes to what you consider diverse. Some people brought this conversation during the Guix Days, probably ignoring the fact that we had people coming from all over the world. I don't know what was their definition of diversity at that moment. On the other hand, we have something in common, so it's really hard to be diverse in the broad sense. Should we include people that like proprietary software, too? Those are also people, and I'm sure they would feel uncomfortable between us. This is not to say we shouldn't try to make things better and more welcoming, of course we should. But I don't think "diversity" actually means that much as a measure because I don't think it's an absolute concept and I think it's very easy to misunderstand. On the other hand, I don't think we can change the world deeply. If in a community women are not allowed to use computers, people coming from that community are less likely to be women, and Guix is just suffering the symptoms of the problem. It's not in Guix hands to go there and fix the problem (I wish we could!). I think the kind of diversity we can try to encourage is the one we have, and it's actually working quite well: we share our opinions, and they very different from one to another and point out when we think something is not right. I don't think we are acting like a cult. But that's just my opinion, which is also not very relevant. In the end it all comes to the same point I mentioned in my original email: it's really hard to measure. And with hard to measure I mean: - How do you measure if Guix is diverse enough? Is there a universal diversity scale? Does a high diversity according to whatever scale we use ensure Guix is going to be in a better shape? - And for the GNU/non-GNU issue. Can we know before taking a decision if it's actually going to bring more contributors to the project? - Same with the Git Forges. We have been discussing this for long, but using, say, GitLab is going to impact on the amount and quality of the contributions to Guix? I don't think software projects are a comfortable place for people to join and have fun, feel included or fulfill any social needs they may have. That's not their goal. They can be fulfilling, but that's not the main goal of the thing. (it might be the goal of a hackerspace) The goal is to make great software, and that, weather we like it or not, is an extremely elitist thing. Most of the people in the universe are not able to make good software. Most of us studied in good universities, have a computer available at any time and have free time to spend here writing tremendous walls of text. Or even more, we have had the privilege to be taught that diversity is important. I'm not saying this has to be an uncomfortable place (in fact, the goal of the original thread is to make it more comfortable), but we shouldn't forget why we are here. And some of the proposals I mentioned come from a good heart, I can agree with them and I appreciate, but in the end it's not clear that they are going to help us with our mission: bring the greatest software to the people, so they enjoy their computing freely. That's why I try to be cautious before taking a decision in those lines. The good part is we can still make friends and all. Ekaitz