From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp12.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id QBOKE11x+WInewEAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 15 Aug 2022 00:04:13 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp12.migadu.com with LMTPS id wHZvE11x+WL8eQAAauVa8A (envelope-from ) for ; Mon, 15 Aug 2022 00:04:13 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC1D48F30 for ; Mon, 15 Aug 2022 00:04:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:54102 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oNLiO-0002Gx-23 for larch@yhetil.org; Sun, 14 Aug 2022 18:04:12 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44356) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oNLhn-0002Fx-Ja for help-guix@gnu.org; Sun, 14 Aug 2022 18:03:36 -0400 Received: from mail1.g12.pair.com ([66.39.4.99]:33989) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oNLhl-0006xX-6z; Sun, 14 Aug 2022 18:03:35 -0400 Received: from mail1.g12.pair.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail1.g12.pair.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FE5F71E57D; Sun, 14 Aug 2022 18:03:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (pw126158065193.33.panda-world.ne.jp [126.158.65.193]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail1.g12.pair.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EA60474583A; Sun, 14 Aug 2022 18:03:23 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Yasuaki Kudo Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: Enterprise Guix Hosting? Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2022 07:03:21 +0900 Message-Id: <47774701-8E8E-4185-9DB9-7E5D7F91ACD2@yasuaki.com> References: <8735dzqhge.fsf@beadling.co.uk> Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= , Benjamin Slade , Olivier Dion , help-guix@gnu.org In-Reply-To: <8735dzqhge.fsf@beadling.co.uk> To: Phil X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (19G71) X-Scanned-By: mailmunge 3.09 on 66.39.4.99 Received-SPF: none client-ip=66.39.4.99; envelope-from=yasu@yasuaki.com; helo=mail1.g12.pair.com X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-guix@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-guix-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Help-Guix" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1660514653; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=rBEQn3hMW8sHXYebV3/x0AXRqAD/SB57XvaTrw475n4=; b=bK5ZASDyQllrvMoqjBuxPrzIVeZYIiBOIOwYOePWblviwxyKy9ka3PZj1KEaIeV1F+5GnH mbpyQnd2lk/OssIK//RfSEZmTCkwvT7gyq4C0WK09mLWRNI5mvvkXYHikadVXXDzc1wDR+ tbd4wqm+L1Y72FJmkbc+ukhIGZrb4/OHq5hnkM4LFDm6vzSUY5Mbwk71Jz0Db5qduqYRIa l7+9yM/p0cdDnrZPpL8eQVwzNVQ7UxfJWKfO7Ok+wmLmZ50oDvaio9G3OkEsYBwuvY2k83 KMGN+Q/mxM/A8gktfyUBtdYwneo+r5RNmV5Wzzgie4voAIOk4b/DioLJTStWWA== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1660514653; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=Ykd4xc7sdZ6+G4hmW0xPjnOGcfqR7ntNHPvethRJzmwMVCas3NJiLlkMXw23HZ9az+My++ RSvREXlIVjzb9p5Qht3tM0OqX0Gu9yWGUQGei9C+cfa1myc6PZxQMtGy4yY1YQDSU/Xxog +nW6ay1xCYzzbGYpyfO3TJBHXn78ex4DaUpCgGn8Ruj+S+GHhXNGPBqE11+DazWd4HE4gQ EPvo5fqxHZZqN442GDYxfqHkhwFO/ShdhKT1QLIIuRxno0t8yhI4if+T7HeqVdZ1o87mfq VTVNYwdWl4kj7lhtViXid60ePvks4gniK4nF+eAKhyq12cj+6uMRnZCbYC5D7Q== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "help-guix-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="help-guix-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -1.76 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "help-guix-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="help-guix-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: EC1D48F30 X-Spam-Score: -1.76 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: v3UCt+BqPje6 Hello Phil!!! What you wrote makes so much sense and sounds very familiar because I had si= milar discussions with my partners at our worker coop! Sometime soon perhaps we can discuss in a video chat or something? Our idea is at the coop is that we want to develop software development acce= leration tools, and a major part would be container-less software provisioni= ng so that composition would not mean more and more layers of technical debt= ... We would like to do this alongside our regular paid software development for= existing clients. Once we have acquired enough scripts, knowhow and the en= thusiasts among our colleagues, we can spin it off and sell it as a service/= consultation! (software will stay as Libre and Free - enterprise users would= not be interested otherwise ) BTW, I am probably the least technical person within the IT side of our coop= - my other partners are pretty high level experts =F0=9F=98=84 -Yasu > On Aug 14, 2022, at 18:53, Phil wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFHi Ludo, >=20 > Comments inline. I'm also aiming to be at the Guix 10 Year thing in > Paris - sadly only for the Friday, so happy to discuss this informally > there too! >=20 > Ludovic Court=C3=A8s writes: >=20 >> Hi Phil, >>=20 >> Phil skribis: >>=20 >>=20 >> =46rom your experience, would you say that persuading was hard primarily >> because Guix was unknown (to them), or because getting started is >> difficult? >=20 > It's a bit of both, in the commercial space there are some mundane > practical concerns. One example would be when 2 companies security > audit each other before using each other's services. If you're using a > prebuilt image of a well known OS, served by AWS or Azure, then the > reality is that this is often easier for a security team to tick this off a= s > a known platform - for no other reason than they've seen it before. > Auditing Guix isn't impossible but it can lead to more questions, simply > because of lack of familiarity. This can be somewhat mitigated by using > Guix as just a package manager on top of a foreign distro, but this > doesn't fully harness the potential of Guix, so it's a trade-off. >=20 > Internally speaking the lack of familiarity wasn't as much of a barrier. > Python is the main language where I work, so I sold it as a better version= > of Virtual Environments - which work for all languages not just Python. > There was an significant initial effort from me and my team to convert > all the current venvs to Guix packages and integrate it with the various > Runtimes and IDEs we use, but once we'd done this, people were largely > happy to transition. I did have to do some tutorials and write a bit of > documentation that meant people could start using Guix without really > getting into the details of what Guix is doing. My argument to most > developers was, "you don't really know all the details of how virtual > environments work, so why do you care about Guix's internals?". Most > happily accepted this argument, providing you give them good docs on how > to use Guix in the workplace. >=20 > Whilst I like Guix's own documentation, some developers did feedback to > me that it was to complex for people who just wanted to get-on and use > Guix, rather than setup, understand and maintain Guix. So this is the > area I ended-up documenting - "Guix Up-and-running for Python > Developers". One day I'd like to publish it properly, but it's very much > a WIP at the moment! >=20 > One advantage I did have is that I rewrote the CI/CD system > to work around Guix, and the old system was showing it's age, so people > were happy to trade Python venvs, for a better build and deployment experi= ence. >=20 > We now have 5 developers working at least part of the time writing > Guix packages, or tweaking small bits of the Guix core code (I keep > meaning to make more of an effort to get our efforts back into Guix > proper!). As more developers slowly try-out more advanced stuff in Guix > this number is growing, and most developers that invest the time end up > liking Guix - so I think there's plenty of hope to grow it further! >=20 >>=20 >> Personally I think we need to make Guix approachable to a wide audience, >> meaning not just developers=E2=80=94that goes beyond your target audience= , let=E2=80=99s >> be ambitious! I=E2=80=99d like to think that =E2=80=98guix install=E2=80= =99, =E2=80=98guix shell=E2=80=99, and >> the likes have a rather low barrier to entry to someone who=E2=80=99s use= the >> command line before, but I=E2=80=99ve also seen newcomers confused becaus= e >> =E2=80=9Cenvironment variables are hard=E2=80=9D and get in the way. >=20 > Yep I do review how Guix is being used at work, and occasionally do find > people using it in weird and wonderful ways. All I do is build up my > documentation so we have a cookbook like format which covers recommended > ways for developers to do things, and things for them to avoid doing too! >=20 > Environment variables can be a common one, when people fiddle with their > PYTHONPATH in their code, or .bashrc, and this can have knock-on issues > with Guix. Best practice documentation helps with this. >=20 >>=20 >> Are there any takeaways from your experience in terms of UX/UI >> improvements we could work on? >=20 > 3 things which lowers the barrier to entry in my experience commercially > would be: >=20 > - Push button WSL support (I know this has some momentum eg > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-patches/2022-08/msg00945.html). > At the moment I tend to use a custom image I made which is just WSL on > top of Ubuntu. I have made it work with busybox, but it's not yet > robust enough to wheel out over the enterprise like this. > - Perhaps a set of videos aimed directly at converting a vanilla Python > environment into one running in Guix. Try to entice the communities > off their current tooling by making it as easy as possible to switch. > I even went as far as writing a requirements file to guix package > converter at work to help with this. > - Excellent Javascript support would help. I'm aware of some of the > difficulties this presents Guix, and am not a fan of npm, etc - but > it's so often used by developers I think not having support for it is > always going to be tricky to sell to a wider audience. >=20 >>=20 >> Thanks, >> Ludo=E2=80=99. >=20