From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp10.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id sNGrNm2N8mIaYgAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 09 Aug 2022 18:38:06 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp10.migadu.com with LMTPS id aAmBNW2N8mL/6gAAG6o9tA (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 09 Aug 2022 18:38:05 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 93C7E34050 for ; Tue, 9 Aug 2022 18:38:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:45430 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oLSF2-0008M7-O6 for larch@yhetil.org; Tue, 09 Aug 2022 12:38:04 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40246) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oLS8H-000447-PR for guix-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 09 Aug 2022 12:31:10 -0400 Received: from laurent.telenet-ops.be ([2a02:1800:110:4::f00:19]:57240) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oLS8D-0004k6-HF for guix-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 09 Aug 2022 12:31:05 -0400 Received: from [IPV6:2a02:1811:8c09:9d00:5dba:d409:33f7:a16] ([IPv6:2a02:1811:8c09:9d00:5dba:d409:33f7:a16]) by laurent.telenet-ops.be with bizsmtp id 5UWv2800320ykKC01UWvxo; Tue, 09 Aug 2022 18:30:57 +0200 Message-ID: <3dfad2da-9b2f-8615-8ad0-fa42dfd6cb79@telenet.be> Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2022 18:30:55 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.12.0 Content-Language: en-US To: blake@reproduciblemedia.com, Guix-devel References: <98da36a2-d0cc-77da-77bf-6984253131ac@telenet.be> <5948e681e5939058f699c0aa8f4f7c52@reproduciblemedia.com> From: Maxime Devos Subject: Re: v2: A proposal of a consistent set of clear rules and guidelines involving snippets, phases and patches. 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; none X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: 6Mtmzs7rrhTC This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------tUJKibUwAhdUkCLDXjF3mKmd Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------iGQSmzCO7AFplSTWl8cH6PhZ"; protected-headers="v1" From: Maxime Devos To: blake@reproduciblemedia.com, Guix-devel Message-ID: <3dfad2da-9b2f-8615-8ad0-fa42dfd6cb79@telenet.be> Subject: Re: v2: A proposal of a consistent set of clear rules and guidelines involving snippets, phases and patches. 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On 05-08-2022 18:59, blake@reproduciblemedia.com wrote:
Hi Maxime,

Adding some basic grammatical corrections below:
I have read several proposed corrections, but most of them don't appear to be grammatical corrections but rather stylistic or about (non-grammar) clarity or contents.
August 5, 2022 1:59 PM, "Maxime Devos" <maximedevos@telenet.be> wrote:


Technical grammatical correction: the software that Guix "has" is that in=
 the monorepo,
but it "distributes" many packages. Thus:
--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
* In principle, Guix only distributes free software; when the upstream so=
urce contains some
non-free software, it should be removed such that =E2=80=98guix build --s=
ource=E2=80=99 returns the "freed"
source code rather than the unmodified upstream source (see: 28.4.1 Softw=
are Freedom).
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

I consider the difference between referring to external source code by including a (snippet-sanitised) copy or downloading it from an URL + snippet-sanitising to be immaterial, except for space and I/O savings, so I consider "has" to include "distributes".

While "distributes" is more specific, I really meant "has" here -- gnu/packages/patches/... and gnu/packages/*.scm must be free too, even if it is was not a distributed package (more concretely, see the bits about patches failing to remove non-freeness).

[...]


      

      

      

        
* The source of the packag=
e needs to correspond to what is actually built (i.e., act as the
corresponding source), to fulfill our ethical and legal obligations.


      

      
The [i.e.] addendum above is redundant, its better worded as:
--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
* The source of a package must correspond to what is actually built (i.e.=
, there must be
an explicit relation between source code and the result of its build for =
all builds),
to fulfill our ethical and legal obligations.
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
    

    
You write that the addendum is redundant, but then change the
      addendum by replacing a word in the addendum by a possible
      definition. I'm not following how that reduces redundancy, and it
      also appears to be contrary to the lack of verbosity that Andreas
      would like.

    

    

    

    

      

        
* It is convenient for the=
 source derived from an origin to build on any system that the upstream
package supports.
* The source needs to actually work, not only on your Guix system but als=
o for other systems; this
requires some care for substitutions involving store items and other arch=
itecture-specific changes.

* Sometimes, there is more than one way to do it. Let's go for the simple=
st one. Sometimes, which
tool is the simplest, is subjective, that's fine too.


      

      
I think would be more clearly worded as:
--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
* When presented with a variety of strategies for defining a package, cho=
ose whichever is simplest.
Sometimes this is subjective, which is also fine. What matters is that yo=
u prefer techniques that
are common within the community (i.e. patterns that appear throughout gnu=
/packages/...) and
are thus clearly legible for reviewers.
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---


    

    
To be clear, this is to replace the third point (Sometimes,
      there's more than one way to do it, etc.), without removing the
      previous two?

    
I would not use combinations like 'presented with a variety of
      strategies' however, I don't think that leads to clarity. Also,
      the preferences of 'you' are not all that important here, it's
      what they choose for that's important even if it is not their
      preference. (Though the two coinciding would be ideal of course!)
      Maybe:

    
When there is more than one wa=
y to do something, choose whichever method is the simplest.
Sometimes this is subjective, which is also fine. What matters is that yo=
u use techniques that
are common within the community (i.e. patterns that appear throughout gnu=
/packages/...) and
are thus clearly legible for reviewers.

    

      

        
To make things more concre=
te and to resolve conflicts between the principles, a few cases have been=

worked out:


      

      
To a newcomer (the target audience), the above may lead to confusion as t=
o what wasn't already=20
concrete in the above descriptions, or what principles above come into co=
nflict. There is a mild,
latent assumption that they are familiar with the Guix workflow, which sh=
ould be avoided. Thus I=20
suggest:
--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
For the purpose of clarifying preferred practices and reducing friction i=
n the review process
introduced by subjective variation, a few guidelines have been worked out=
:
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
    

    
I don't see how a fancy wording amounting to essentially the same
      thing would reduce confusion or avoid latent assumptions.

    
Anyway, I'm not seeing any assumption that they are already
      familiar with the Guix workflow -- the point of such sections is
      to explain the workflow, people already familiar aren't expected
      to read it (at least, not often). I don't see how it would lead to
      confusion, because it doesn't allude to any principles in
      particular, because the text isn't some kind of analysis on
      principles and their interactions but a howto of sorts, and
      because it points to the cases below.
    

    

      

        
20.4.5.1 Removing non-free software. Non-free software has to be removed =
in a snippet; the reason is
that a patch or phase will not work.


      

      
Well, it might work on their machine, but not for community standards. To=
 reduce confusion:
--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
20.4.5.1 Removing non-free software.
Non-free software should be removed using snippets; when removing non-fre=
e software, a patch or phase
will not be accepted.
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---


    

    
The purpose of the hypothetical patch or phase is to remove the
      non-freeness. As such, if the non-freeness wasn't removed, the
      patch or phase did not work, for the local meaning of "working".=C2=
=A0
      This is machine-independent (so no "it might work on their
      machine"), unless there is some kind of non-determinism, but I
      haven't ever noticed that happening for non-freeness removal code.<=
br>
    

    

      

        
For a patch, the problem is that a patch removing a non-free file automat=
ically contains the
non-free file (^), and we do not want anything non-free to appear in Guix=
 even if only in its
patches.



      

      
Is better as:
--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
For patches, the issue is that a patch that removes a non-free file autom=
atically contains the
non-free file (^), and we do not want any non-free software to be distrib=
uted with Guix, even=20
if it only appears within the context of a patch.

Concerning phases, the problem is that they do not influence the result o=
f =E2=80=98guix build --source=E2=80=99.
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---


    

    
Why the change:

    
    
      
  • singular->plural (for: patch) -- is this to reduce the
        wordcount (avoid an 'a'), or for consistency, or ...?
    
      
    • 
      
  • passive->active (for: removing -> that removes) -- it
        becomes more wordy, so seems harder to follow for me
    • 
      
  • appear->be distributed -- more wordy, also things parts of
        Guix itself=C2=A0 (and hence not distributed, except for "guix bu=
ild
        guix" and "guix pull") should be free so I don't think being
        more specific makes things more precise.
    • 
      
  • "only in its patches" -> "if it only appears within the
        context of a patch" -- more wordy, and more indirection
    • 
      
  • "For a phases" -> "Concerning phases"=C2=A0 -- slightly less=

        direct
      
    • 
    

    

      

        
20.4.5.2 Removing bundled =
libraries.

Bundled libraries should not be removed with a patch, because then the pa=
tch would contain the full
bundled library, which can be large. They can be removed either in a snip=
pet or a phase, often
using the procedure 'delete-file-recursively'. There are a few benefits f=
or snippets here:

When using snippets, the bundled library does not occur in the source ret=
urned by =E2=80=98guix build
--source=E2=80=99, so users and reviewers do not have to worry about whet=
her the bundled library contains
malware, whether it is non-free, if it contains pre-compiled binaries ...=
 There are also less
licensing concerns: if the bundled libraries are removed, it becomes less=
 likely that the licensing
conditions apply to people sharing the source returned by =E2=80=98guix b=
uild --source=E2=80=99, especially if the
bundled library is not actually used on Guix systems. (*)

As such, snippets are recommended here.

(*) This is _not_ a claim that you can simply ignore the licenses of libr=
aries when they are
unbundled and replaced by Guix packages -- there are less concerns, not n=
one.

20.4.5.3 Fixing technical issues (compilation errors, test failures, othe=
r bugs ...)

Usually, a bug fix comes in the form of a patch copied from upstream or a=
nother distribution. In
that case, simply adding the patch to the 'patches' field is the most con=
venient and usually does
not cause any problems; there is no need to rewrite it as a snippet or a =
phase.

If no ready-made patch already exists, then choosing between a patch or a=
 snippet is a matter of
convenience. However, there are two things to keep in mind:

First, when the fix is not Guix-specific, it is strongly desired to upstr=
eam the fix to avoid the
additional maintenance cost to Guix. As upstreams cannot accept a snippet=
, writing a patch can be a
more efficient use of time. Secondly, if the fix of a technical issue emb=
eds a store file name,
then it has to be a phase. Otherwise, if a store file name was embedded i=
n the source, the result
of 'guix build --source' would be unusable on non-Guix systems and likely=
 also unusable on Guix
systems of another architecture.


      

      
And some basic last corrections here:
--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
First, when the fix is not Guix-specific, it is strongly desired by upstr=
eam that the fix avoids any
additional maintenance costs for Guix.

    

    
While I would like upstreams to care about additional maintenance
      costs downstream, I do not think we have proof of that at the
      moment, so I would stick with the meaning of the original sentence
      -- I used 'upstream' as a verb here, not as a noun.

    
However, I could look into reformulating the sentence a bit to
      avoid reading it as a noun and hence avoid backtracing when
      parsing that sentence?

    

    

      
 As upstream cannot accept a=
 snippet, writing a patch can be a

    

    There's more than one upstream as Guix has multiple packages, so the
    plural "upstreams" seems more correct to me, though I wouldn't
    consider the singular to be incorrect.=C2=A0 I have however, in some
    other places used singular for something of which there exist
    multiple instances, so I'll look at making the wording consistent
    one way or the other.

    

      
more efficient use of time. Secondly, if the fix of a technical issue emb=
eds a store file name,
then it has to be a phase. Otherwise, if the store file name were to be e=
mbedded in the source,

    

    
Right, I already introduces a store file name, and that
      "otherwise" refers to the same store file name.

    
"the store file name" is singular, so ^W^W -- nevermind, that's a
      subjunctive? I would go for the simpler "i fthe store file name
      were embedded in the source", dropping the 'to be' indirection.
=

    

    
Question: do you know how to decide between "if X were to be
      embedded"/"if X were embedded" and "if X was embedded"?

    

    

      
 the
result of 'guix build --source' would be unusable on non-Guix systems, an=
d also likely unusable on
Guix systems of another architecture.
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---


    

    
The Oxford comma or lack thereof are acceptable stylistic
      conventions, but not a grammatical error. There are only two
      conjucts here though, so I don't think the Oxford comma applies
      here. Additionally, the two conjucts are about mostly the same
      thing, but just different (similar!) subcases that merely happen
      to need different qualifications (unusable on non-Guix vs. likely
      unusable on different-arch Guix), so I don't think that 'also'
      brings something here.

    

    Greetings,

    Maxime.

  


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