From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp11.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id 4H5dERNFMmLf7wAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2022 21:14:11 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp11.migadu.com with LMTPS id mLGnDhNFMmIVKgEA9RJhRA (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2022 21:14:11 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC1081A67E for ; Wed, 16 Mar 2022 21:14:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:49478 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nUa25-0000YS-H8 for larch@yhetil.org; Wed, 16 Mar 2022 16:14:09 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:57076) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nUa1l-0000YH-W2 for guix-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Mar 2022 16:13:50 -0400 Received: from mail1.g12.pair.com ([66.39.4.99]:33350) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nUa1k-0004rL-Fv for guix-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Mar 2022 16:13:49 -0400 Received: from mail1.g12.pair.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail1.g12.pair.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C08071E5AA; Wed, 16 Mar 2022 16:13:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (w135107.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [121.1.135.107]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail1.g12.pair.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BA17974579A; Wed, 16 Mar 2022 16:13:46 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Yasuaki Kudo Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: Building a software toolchain that works Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 05:13:44 +0900 Message-Id: <3AA4FABC-0651-4172-BC28-344E04375CD1@yasuaki.com> References: In-Reply-To: To: Ryan Prior X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (19D52) Received-SPF: none client-ip=66.39.4.99; envelope-from=yasu@yasuaki.com; helo=mail1.g12.pair.com X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Guix Devel Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1647461651; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=9guSHbmwXoBMmJa+HD0bcKoT8CdM/wmbeNj7C8/KozY=; b=fIqFY0jEYBOS2GwpoSn5wek6RYTzHiwDZnc/BL9dfqs1/6ThAqPiUEYXx0S1SkkZOu/03F Nu590ukdzKw80xTCFEEJX+3BTOwmeMrmBSYUNsq6aVXMrt/Si4c/tRrIXngAlCOLiX8kLQ EITKmRIPp+LVmsmV3/FB4ni0voW/Mgbyr4tgK4QHsbp/tJm2Co8y750lB/xasca4lD5+it AU1AdOElG/5gpXsRVqj/Ga0gp8Ac+rnVltHeMRgla2vVBjSkbDABpB6VJN8uymUvq6PyWN nyGyTnfNK3qhm3V5o4zH0cUpaTWZkKy/c7Da9d7zdUSj42/EmtA898SJaCSuDQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1647461651; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=WSZehjp8VllUIU54WDQ7ApTf5FrLMjLtr5FgSaCF8wZNsYaEQL1jZ4nINCuBydhUFA4Q8U X/eofD9VWQMGhF4P6fkuXI35tL9wIMDeTLQdsrHbuj/wx8RixK+S/UdpPaxb9qGLg/7l7W A6NH10ZFv087+RBkMxvrc/ci4qVfIL+YjwdQh5+9g9nELSyUc+vfruE0ycxhfHhTM21mvd A9tY8wa+KL58M+csu637CpIOycrtL02ATqazsh3MkPucC+6rUphuUqTZHiBREkJH2OcxBe RZfActG2LiHxk4sfX3FVH7iI3cgsddkZfgvYJcxK3Wa5nfqmvvuEFjaEtXnjlQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.76 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: EC1081A67E X-Spam-Score: -3.76 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: zWfhZuMqGw49 I am very interested in this topic, too! At work, I have been forced to use the NPM package manager and since the fir= st day I have been unable to understand this enigma - how on earth do people= work with this fuzzy system almost designed to be unaccountable?? Can Gui= x replace NPM? I think we are really onto something - my hunch is that technicalities are o= nly half of the issue and the other is the community building for democratic= and accountable software(for which, concepts like Free Software will fit na= turally) -Yasu > On Mar 17, 2022, at 00:29, Ryan Prior wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Wednesday, March 16th, 2022 at 2:02 PM, Josselin Poiret wrote: >=20 >> Let me chime in on a specific point. >> [...] >> I don't think I would've written these patches without Guix's help. >=20 > This is CRUCIAL to Guix's value proposition: by abstracting away so much o= f the incidental complexity of software, Guix enables a nimble, carefree mod= e of hacking where you'll create and improve software that would never have b= een worth the trouble otherwise. >=20 > Proposals like David's `guix contribute` play on the strength of Guix as a= n enabling technology. That's exactly the kind of thing I meant when I wrote= "double down." How can I encourage the improvement & implementation of such= proposals? A few notions: >=20 > a. My Guile isn't strong enough to put together a proof-of-concept in Guix= as a solo effort. I might be able to write a PoC in concert with a more exp= erienced Guiler. We could schedule some strategy & pair programming sessions= to get something on track. >=20 > b. I could work on a PoC using a language I'm better trained with (elisp, R= uby and JavaScript are my three strongest languages probably.) I don't know h= ow that would be received by the Guix commons, I've felt discouraged in the p= ast to extend Guix unless it's in Guile but perhaps that's a false anxiety. >=20 > c. I could also provide some funding if somebody has time & skills to crea= te a PoC and just needs the financial incentive. If this is you, reach out. >=20 >=20 > I've been pleased to see ideas resonate in this thread. It makes me believ= e many of us have some form of this thought in our heads and that by sociali= zing we can bring something fresh to the free software world. What are the n= ext steps? >=20