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charset="utf-8" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a02:8010:6548::4; envelope-from=andrius@stikonas.eu; helo=mail.stikonas.eu X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 17303603E3 X-Migadu-Scanner: mx12.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -5.60 X-Spam-Score: -5.60 X-TUID: UTx/k4gF60tC (Sorry, initially forgot to do reply all and only sent it to bug-mes) 2024 m. liepos 9 d., antradienis 18:18:19 GMT+1 Simon Tournier ra=C5=A1=C4= =97: > Hi Janneke, >=20 > On Sat, 06 Jul 2024 at 11:16, Janneke Nieuwenhuizen wro= te: > > We are happy to announce the release of GNU Mes 0.27. >=20 > Cool! Really nice. >=20 > > Remove indirect Guile > >=20 > > dependencies (via Gash and Gash-Utils) from the Mes bootstrap in Guix. >=20 > Do you mean remove guile-bootstrap from the picture? The root of this > graph: I think what janneke means (correct me if I'm wrong) is that before now gas= h=20 and gash utils could only run on guile but not on mes. So that arrow that w= as=20 pointing from gash to guile-bootstrap will point to mes. >=20 > https://www.gnu.org/software/mes/manual/images/gcc-mesboot-graph.png >=20 > ? What=E2=80=99s the plan? Replace the requirements of stage0-posix pro= vided > by Gash and Gash-Utils by increasing bootstrap-seeds? bootstrap seeds bubble in that graph refers to [1], so it wouldn't be chang= ing=20 as we don't add anything else there. stage0-posix requirements are related to package manager and/or limitations= of=20 source distribution method. If stage0-posix exists in unpacked form, it can= =20 run the whole bootstrap chain itself using either kaem-optional-seed [2] in= =20 userspace/POSIX bootstrap (e.g. just kernel and initramfs with bootstrap-se= eds=20 and source) or builder-hex0 [3] (plus sources) in MBR/BIOS bootstrap (where= we=20 bootstrap linux kernel too). And then no guile-bootstrap is needed at all.= =20 Both of these problems are already solved on x86 (though now new x86 machin= es=20 generally come without BIOS and bootstrapping on UEFI is only partially don= e). But this method of running bootstrap from just sub 1KB bootstrap-seeds (and= no=20 guile-bootstrap) cannot be directly implemented in Guix or any other packag= e=20 manager. They'll always need some extra seeds that run package manager itse= lf. At best we can hope to make those additional seeds smaller, e.g. replace=20 guile-bootstrap with mes and make Guix run in mes but we can't replace guil= e- bootstrap with kaem-optional-seed and still keep package manager=20 functionality. What would be interesting from bootstrapping perspective is to make those=20 additional seeds (guile-bootstrap in particular) fully bootstrappable/ reproducible not just from inside Guix but also without Guix, so that we do= n't=20 have chicken and egg problem of how to build guile-bootstrap binary when we don't yet have Guix. >=20 > Well, gcc-core-mesboot0 which is higher in the graph also depends on > guile-bootstrap, right? I think janneke hopes that one day guile-bootstrap will be replaced by mes.= =20 mes is also much easier to irreducibly bootstrap than guile. Andrius [1] https://github.com/oriansj/bootstrap-seeds/ [2] https://github.com/oriansj/bootstrap-seeds/tree/master/POSIX/x86 [3] https://github.com/oriansj/bootstrap-seeds/tree/master/NATIVE/x86