From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp11.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:403:478a::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms9.migadu.com with LMTPS id uJSpIoPhDmW7PgEA9RJhRA:P1 (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 23 Sep 2023 15:00:51 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:403:478a::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp11.migadu.com with LMTPS id uJSpIoPhDmW7PgEA9RJhRA (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 23 Sep 2023 15:00:51 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A266758CFD for ; Sat, 23 Sep 2023 15:00:50 +0200 (CEST) Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=libre.brussels header.s=mail header.b=GLzugTev; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=libre.brussels ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1695474051; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=k9pgBVCfb0rjwuu0pP3VRGGy1LFmMGfWT6Mzms2pcAg=; b=F+iPsfN50mGosgjXMSue/B/jURxUu2HD1+vWFcAMfXvqvdsLctdZnT/1SFbFNeg3s+g3q9 NCtGDf119WUt3KwbrrN5rZdzT0tm8406B16elkTDcn2dNr+NAtUEmm69iQM0ciG5qv32HM mRVP5IICT9RB572WaVpJ+QKEZZUdheQ3BplwvqqVF/5FdczG7kjMlDKtRNmw4YTkKXcj/M CEhYVk9S3o9WFbIURYYR65m6BDGnlAK+RCiL1mxTtw2LZdGaHLnPDFNL82L+/yCbl5Ro/s DPsXVWMlBvyvt9oViF+MQTC+UjnhgowomoSrCOLTCQlZwA9FTno7iLdktSN6Qw== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1695474051; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=cOtPo2JRuYVwEUuFJJz8k8z+0bXtgG1hw9wM7pMR2JUwx9tPxJQruzAX268+zT2CIUuJqo h6JlI5ggVc7eUd4yNkWcXMWmcma03sG1g+fbV6z9QsporjyZGCRkorXrtTNDIw4mVao111 vKkC41tGpKOyXkz0VAFaNHdCi/SHf25zkbBPZpXhZpS3x+ZMIT4NHp3pHilhJrjsRwM/If iHWBAR2Ya73Vo8O1dVDpNI4kByaSeXotL6HRlCyvi68jjZWCWkjtGJ7XeA3v3w25j6lAab hJoRxHbIT4rYr027YLs0j5AvqxM3oyLmCG1CvpnUSWCrKULSg+Qk4FtA/I1xMg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=libre.brussels header.s=mail header.b=GLzugTev; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=libre.brussels Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qk2En-0001G4-8D; Sat, 23 Sep 2023 08:59:57 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qk2Ej-0001Fu-6s for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 23 Sep 2023 08:59:53 -0400 Received: from libre.brussels ([144.76.234.112]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qk2Eh-0002d9-9Y; Sat, 23 Sep 2023 08:59:52 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=libre.brussels; s=mail; t=1695473985; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=k9pgBVCfb0rjwuu0pP3VRGGy1LFmMGfWT6Mzms2pcAg=; b=GLzugTevZEilPHBHBNsef6i4F32gWnuJfYH4gLSlvBhXnzsftTpkWsYpSfGRDTORheOkfp TQo1oU8C6ycBhXAnoiZ0ghjzr+oITL1V6NCa+bw/SH1tRRqU5xYImLEuag8gTk/zr28mKr sUqtG8klzjnnlyhBr92eDPv+Ov+qW5M= MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2023 14:59:45 +0200 From: indieterminacy To: paul Cc: Janneke Nieuwenhuizen , Nathan Dehnel , atai@atai.org, guix-devel@gnu.org Subject: The Giraffe; the Pelican et al (was Re: The e(macs)lephant in the room and the Guix Bang) In-Reply-To: <2a710ca0-466b-0d6e-9768-60b7904178cc@autistici.org> References: <875y41gx14.fsf@gnu.org> <2a710ca0-466b-0d6e-9768-60b7904178cc@autistici.org> Message-ID: <331eef527aca4c69dc8ffde867cedd6e@libre.brussels> X-Sender: indieterminacy@libre.brussels Organization: Icebreaker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received-SPF: pass client-ip=144.76.234.112; envelope-from=indieterminacy@libre.brussels; helo=libre.brussels X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Scanner: mx0.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -4.45 X-Spam-Score: -4.45 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: A266758CFD X-TUID: C220fglHrmS2 I would assume that people who dont use Emacs are entitled to document their experiences using their weapon(s) of choice within the Guix knowledge corpus. Sure, consider and discuss governance and workflows... but people complaining that Emacs users have documented their techniques to a better standard than non Emacs users within an operating system's documentation is bordering on the ridiculous. On 23-09-2023 10:58, paul wrote: > Dear Janneke, > > On 9/23/23 09:37, Janneke Nieuwenhuizen wrote: >> Nathan Dehnel writes: >> >>> I don't use emacs either (because it's so impenetrable) >> Emacs might be somewhat different from what you know, but this is >> utter >> bollocks. > > Thank you for your opinion but it's just that: a subjective judgement > based on your own episodic experience. Which is definitely valid but > unrealistically shared by so many to be able to define Nathan's > experience "utter bollocks". > > I think this attitude (in my experience typical of GNU maintainers) > where their way of doing computation is more blessed or holier or > better sometimes really ruins the social interactions happening around > Guix (which is the safest  community in the GNU project imho, probably > also due to the distance they rightfully posed during the whole > stallman drama). > > It's especially problematic when people in power such as maintainers do > not realize their role in the community. You have more power, probably > due to your investment you have a clearer vision of where the project > is going as well. You are supposed to be a role model for new users and > contributors. > >> If he could learn, most anyone should be able to pick it >> up. >> People are still indenting their code manually today, etc... it's >> ridiculous. > This behavior is not ok. Again, please, stop throwing your judgement on > people. Potential users or contributors even. >> Also, magit. > > I use Emacs, love magit, I used to use it daily also at $day_job on > Windows because it's just so good, but I can assure you most of Git > users never heard of it and live their life pretty happily. > > giacomo -- Jonathan McHugh indieterminacy@libre.brussels