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Mon, 24 Jun 2024 03:31:29 -0400 Received: from mail.webarch.email ([81.95.52.48]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sLeAh-0001BT-HI for guix-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Jun 2024 03:31:29 -0400 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Mailerdaemon) with ESMTPSA id B8D7B1A83936; Mon, 24 Jun 2024 08:31:05 +0100 (BST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=msavoritias.me; s=20210930; t=1719214271; h=from:subject:date:message-id:to:cc:mime-version:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:references; bh=36BtTLLFpEGO8CGqFHajR6XwFFclaMkLcVoaAVbLjsE=; b=x6/8ErkXVNq0cmiwmhE1nELUx8Ha91zkY+FLdSHFCaPbJHP4SjmJSqDNTZZ0yvu3aoBsz+ jo9dY8hDmeVduli+b+bWBB03X6W2Mpi0MWEg5FKyHVAtuKnEtG5N6963j8b91ZvlsqJ/+E p3A8CFDHPpeGbv2ZwKFl8whx4AS5TwC6ygyJSdUaOquUYZrZLQWC+RJRLmG218pBYdHkYB tTwi0FP4iIbx9g9zBUMAIW47/MoOe+9hp8bahcMvkLRQtCwz5MKrAoNAp9Tze8oWnS6ixY jTIaO0/u7f6d3kMBQaf1VUA3j5KVkPXCD+YUAP+KavUzuoCoqxwmFBX2jmRMqA== Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2024 10:30:05 +0300 From: MSavoritias To: Simon Tournier Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: Breath, let take a short break :-) Message-ID: <20240624103005.53ccbb80@fannys.me> In-Reply-To: <87tthkrhfq.fsf@gmail.com> References: <20240618113717.4a6bad2b@fannys.me> <87msnebsfd.fsf@gmail.com> <20240621121213.419da774@fannys.me> <20240621134439.5bc324b4@fannys.me> <87ed8qkzn1.fsf@wireframe> <20240621202240.251fceb2@fannys.me> <87bk3ukoje.fsf@wireframe> <20240622184621.682c3122@fannys.me> <87tthkrhfq.fsf@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 4.1.1 (GTK 3.24.41; 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.26 X-Spam-Score: -3.26 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 89FD37756B X-Migadu-Scanner: mx11.migadu.com X-TUID: LOJpFsILFWAm On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 19:55:05 +0200 Simon Tournier wrote: Hey Simon, I would suggest to take a step back as you said and consider whether what y= ou are doing is in fact tone-policing here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_policing > A tone argument (also called tone policing) is a type of ad hominem aimed= at the tone of an argument instead of its factual or logical content in or= der to dismiss a person's argument. Ignoring the truth or falsity of a stat= ement, a tone argument instead focuses on the emotion with which it is expr= essed. This is a logical fallacy because a person can be angry while still = being rational. Nonetheless, a tone argument may be useful when responding = to a statement that itself does not have rational content, such as an appea= l to emotion. I will elaborate below. > Hi MSavoritias, >=20 > This message is not to cut any discussion but maybe it could be helpful > or a bit saner if you refrain to rehash again and again the same to all > messages, replying the same (or almost) to each person expressing > different opinions. Its not really different tho is it? In the sense that since the beginning o= f this thread there has been 2 opinions. The one for consent was supressed pretty fast with arguments appealing on "= ethics" and "you just don't understand free software is all the rules we ha= ve" both of them bad faith arguments of course. So if you look at the thread actually its the people that have already phra= sed their support have stopped replying, and I am the one replying to one o= pinion. I invite you to think about 3 things: 1. Why did you felt to point it out to me instead of the same bad faith arg= ument been written again and again? 2. What happened to the people that wanted consent but now don't reply anym= ore. 3. Does that a culture like this stop more voices from coming forward? > No blame, and I also include myself: being very enthusiastic to defend > ideas and values. However, a storm of replies is maybe not the best > mean to achieve such defense. :-) >=20 > I think people got your points and your opinion, quickly summarized as: >=20 > 1. SWH broke =E2=80=9Cimplicit social rules=E2=80=9D, > 2. Because of that, Guix must make a clear public =E2=80=9Cpressure=E2= =80=9D against SWH. >=20 >=20 > Let look how the thread looks like: >=20 > https://yhetil.org/guix/87a5jfjoey.fsf@gmail.com/T/#rc72a0743026006ee9d47= 58cfa794df42a9964a55 > (or this other one: https://yhetil.org/guix/87il1mupco.fsf@meson/#r) Again see above. > Then, for what my humble point of view is worth here, I think that your > opinion is maybe not the consensus. Obviously, the discussion is still > open and your opinion is welcome =E2=80=93 yeah obviously welcome! =E2=80= =93 but maybe > not by replying to all, each time. As mentioned above you probably missed the first few replies before this th= read was taken over so please go read again the first few hours :) As another point please dont gaslight me :) I know how many people have rep= lied in support both in this thread and in xmpp. So this thread being flooded by people who dont think CoC or consent or pri= vacy matters doesn't really make me question if I am right.=20 It makes me question that of course nobody else is going to reply to get st= orm of replies saying how "unethical" they are. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting > Gaslighting is a colloquialism, loosely defined as manipulating someone i= nto questioning their own perception of reality. > You are advocating for a safe place, right? From my eyes, when I see > the structure of the thread, it does not generate a safe place where > collaboration is encouraged. >=20 > My feeling, when I do a step back and look to the structure of the > thread, is that some opinions are silent because it=E2=80=99s hard to hav= e the > space to express them. Yes exactly. So lets see what opinions were expressed the first few hours o= f this thread. And what opinions have been expressed after mostly. And lets see what kind of arguments were against these initial points. (hin= t: its not good faith arguments most of them :) ) I do agree that the mailing list is not a safe space for a host of reasons = that I already knew going in (and believe me its not easy try to write and = persist) but that is an argument for another time. > Sometimes, a breath is helpful. Somehow, FWIW, I suggest you to let the > discussion aside, then some days later read again some messages, try to > differently understand what other peers are trying to express, and > comment to few on a fresh mindset. >=20 > All opinions are very welcome. We are all here because we value Free > Software, community, people, etc. and not necessary in that order. And > that=E2=80=99s very important to be able to express all the diversity. If we value diversity then we need to ask: Where are the different opinions really and why did they left? Have you ask= ed yourself that Simon? This is not meant of course to say that it is your fault. Its meant to be a= wider discussion of: 1. Why did the moderation fail in this thread? 2. Where are the diversity of voices? 3. Why was the piling on of a single view point that is again the Guix CoC = allowed in this thread? MSavoritias > Again, this message is not a mean to cut any discussion. Instead, this > message is a call to slow down. :-) >=20 > WDYT? >=20 > Cheers, > simon