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Fri, 21 Jun 2024 05:12:31 -0400 Received: from mail.webarch.email ([81.95.52.48]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sKaJl-0003uL-LC for guix-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 21 Jun 2024 05:12:27 -0400 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Mailerdaemon) with ESMTPSA id 15F271A88A0F; Fri, 21 Jun 2024 10:12:15 +0100 (BST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=msavoritias.me; s=20210930; t=1718961140; h=from:subject:date:message-id:to:cc:mime-version:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:references; bh=1t6chVZ86ngkt9XtZhNATw+lhNk46++AFHsLa/JXK6g=; b=Amv2IY0iItgbESf3c29tdgwe4tY3vERzDZfXuiFoObztGtTvLWs3uiQQQYhCvyOR7nan/S HPVYN2etsjDRj73VV/y7B92aZ3mXpgbPWrAeKe9H9h2hPrY60fNxxiL8AG6bSxVQB6e4f6 i+8Lbg/AsW2ge0qvsC0QXci/KwNLDqepnJYjRp2r0X6iF7eheADM0zzQr+ZdhoV3LAvaZ+ T3u8yHM0lNVTAdI7C1JlT+IqXwiLxn/G7+9sEMg5bcDjHqNFIwgqyVdqzbLTtDwqlING+M 3OUe5pIfnjvZY/C6KzKRYUxaihpUmC19jkYIjM5GtJcG3V65OobQ4E3xKPEeiA== Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2024 12:12:13 +0300 From: MSavoritias To: Simon Tournier Cc: Dale Mellor , Ian Eure , guix-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: About SWH, let avoid the wrong discussion Message-ID: <20240621121213.419da774@fannys.me> In-Reply-To: <87msnebsfd.fsf@gmail.com> References: <20240618113717.4a6bad2b@fannys.me> <87msnebsfd.fsf@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 4.1.1 (GTK 3.24.41; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Last-TLS-Session-Version: TLSv1.3 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=81.95.52.48; envelope-from=email@msavoritias.me; helo=mail.webarch.email X-Spam_score_int: -16 X-Spam_score: -1.7 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.7 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Queue-Id: ECC5263775 X-Migadu-Scanner: mx12.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -4.76 X-Spam-Score: -4.76 X-TUID: byTSgXBeWFT+ On Fri, 21 Jun 2024 10:39:50 +0200 Simon Tournier wrote: Hey, Just wanted to send a quick reply that as I have mentioned elsewhere I do n= ot wish to see SWH go. I think they are doing great work. and as I mention in my first email I want to apply social pressure and make= it clear to package authors what is happening so we can move to an opt-in = model. It was never my intent to make it seem like we need to burn all bridges wit= h SWH. I do think they have done mistakes but that is not a reason to break= apart. We definetily need something like SWH and I do hope to see them come around= to a consentual model. MSavoritias > Hi all, >=20 > For the record, the Software Heritage initiative is supportive of the > Guix project since years. >=20 > It means that members of Guix community have or had interactions with > Software Heritage (SWH) teams since years. For example, the blog post > =E2=80=9CConnecting reproducible deployment to a long-term source code ar= chive=E2=80=9D > [1] published in 2019. And more recently, the scientific communication > =E2=80=9CSource Code Archiving to the Rescue of Reproducible Deployment= =E2=80=9D [2]. >=20 > Almost 6 years of friendly interactions and shared values. >=20 > Could we avoid to express definitive opinions based on partial > considerations about multi-dimensional topics? >=20 > Since years, several members of Guix community are helped in one way or > the other by SWH team members in improving free software ecosystem. >=20 > Well, I speak for myself: I have been invited to several events > organized by SWH and it=E2=80=99s up to you to trust me when I say: SWH t= eam > works very hard to embrace all the diversity of FOSS communities. For > example, I recently attended to a talk organized by SWH about Commons; > that talk had been a very good food for thought and maybe it could feed > our current discussion about governance/sociocracy via comments here or > there I could commit, I do not know, maybe. >=20 > Well, I am very grateful for the opportunity to interact with SWH teams. >=20 > For the record, SWH provided various supports for the organization of 10 > Years of Guix, back in 2022. Please remember that SWH team members were > there and some stayed all the three days; probably because we are a nice > community? All the video stream and good videos of the 10 Years of Guix > event you probably watched or maybe watch again is because the tireless > work of multi-hats person (Debian Developer, Debian Video Team, =E2=80=A6= and > working at SWH) helped by Guix community members. >=20 > Please check the Copyright header for the subcommand =E2=80=9Cguix locate= =E2=80=9D. > Yes, it had been partly written by one SWH team member because, yes they > run Guix. Yes, their day-job is at SWH and they are also part of our > Guix community by contributing to Guix source code. >=20 > Now, you take it as it is: I am sad by what people are concluding! >=20 > Yes I understand why people are angry. Yes discussions must happen. >=20 > However, I was expecting more benefit of the doubt considering history > and track record. Hum, even, maybe, I am asking myself if Guix > community is indeed nice or if this time the community is just harsh and > unfair. >=20 > Do we forget the track record and the common history? >=20 > Then, for what my opinion is worth, fighting against SWH while thinking > it=E2=80=99s fighting against LLM/AI is the wrong fight. Because 1. we a= re all > in the team. And 2. because SWH could be a facilitator for helping in > some regulations, maybe, I do not know. Somehow, I agree with Ekaitz. >=20 > You take it as it is: I was expecting more humility by Guix community > members. Do you really think that a collective of people involved in > various FOSS communities with different roles, dedicating their free > time to free software or open source movements, do you think they are > the bad actors here? >=20 > My humility tells me, as I expressed several times, nothing is ignored. >=20 > Yes I also got the point about the lack of transparency. As I said > above, FWIW, I am in touch with SWH team. Well, I do not have special > information from SWH and I trust them to have listened or are still > listening various communities. So my understanding is: work is in > progress=E2=80=A6 Somehow, wait and see. >=20 > Yes I know we cannot wait forever. Again, do we forget the track record > and the common history? Do we consider that a multi-layers topic > involving legal or ethics questions is straightforward to articulate? >=20 > My humility tells me to wait to have clear and better understanding > about SWH motivations, their rationale, the measures and > counter-measures they maybe have in mind. Be patient and tolerant as I > am with my friends. >=20 > Long enough email and thread. That=E2=80=99s all from me! :-) >=20 > My last message. Not because I am bored but because one week of > holidays is starting now for me. ;-) >=20 > 1: https://guix.gnu.org/en/blog/2019/connecting-reproducible-deployment-t= o-a-long-term-source-code-archive/ > 2: https://hal.science/hal-04586520v1 >=20 > Cheers, > simon