Guix website

Guix website

[Pjotr Prins]

I just had a look at the Guix website and it appears to advertise
liberating, dependable and hackable.

Now I am not going to say this is bad, it appeals to *me*, but it does
address hackers more than system administrators who ought to switch to
GNU Guix. The man who wrote this

  http://www.vitavonni.de/blog/201503/2015031201-the-sad-state-of-sysadmin-in-the-age-of-containers.html

should have mentioned Guix. Right? 

So, what can we change to attract the right crowd? I strongly suggest
to weigh in on 'reproducible software deployment', security and
certification. 

What do you think? Can we first and foremost pitch reproducibility?
More and more people will start to understand the binary installation
problem and look for *real* solutions that can handle complexity. They
will come to us and tell their *hackers* to look into it ;)

Pj.

(PS Thanks Dave for the link).

Re: Guix website

[Ni*]

Pjotr Prins <pjotr.public12@thebird.nl> writes:

> I just had a look at the Guix website and it appears to advertise
> liberating, dependable and hackable.
>
> Now I am not going to say this is bad, it appeals to *me*, but it does
> address hackers more than system administrators who ought to switch to
> GNU Guix. The man who wrote this
>
>   http://www.vitavonni.de/blog/201503/2015031201-the-sad-state-of-sysadmin-in-the-age-of-containers.html
>
> should have mentioned Guix. Right? 
>
> So, what can we change to attract the right crowd? I strongly suggest
> to weigh in on 'reproducible software deployment', security and
> certification. 
>
> What do you think? Can we first and foremost pitch reproducibility?
> More and more people will start to understand the binary installation
> problem and look for *real* solutions that can handle complexity. They
> will come to us and tell their *hackers* to look into it ;)
>
> Pj.
>
> (PS Thanks Dave for the link).
>

In my opinion if the selfdescription is to be changed, it should still
reflect that it is hackable, liberating and dependable, I think this is
a good description too.
So something like "GNU/Guix - your hackable, liberating and dependable
(...) with an emphasis on/move towards reproducible builds." or
something better than this sentence.

-- 
ng/Ni*
http://libertad.pw:8080
Email is public. Talk to me in private:
https://psyced.org:34443/~niasterisk
privacy respecting, secure communication:
BM-2cSj8qEigE3CMaLU3CwPZf7T3LvzvnttsC
(bitmessage)

Re: Guix website

[Leo Famulari]

On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 12:18:41PM +0100, Pjotr Prins wrote:
> I just had a look at the Guix website and it appears to advertise
> liberating, dependable and hackable.
> 
> Now I am not going to say this is bad, it appeals to *me*, but it does
> address hackers more than system administrators who ought to switch to
> GNU Guix. The man who wrote this
> 
>   http://www.vitavonni.de/blog/201503/2015031201-the-sad-state-of-sysadmin-in-the-age-of-containers.html
> 
> should have mentioned Guix. Right? 
> 
> So, what can we change to attract the right crowd? I strongly suggest
> to weigh in on 'reproducible software deployment', security and
> certification. 
> 
> What do you think? Can we first and foremost pitch reproducibility?
> More and more people will start to understand the binary installation
> problem and look for *real* solutions that can handle complexity. They
> will come to us and tell their *hackers* to look into it ;)

After the last exchange on help-guix, I think you are right. We really
need to do more to explain what Guix can do.

Hackability and dependability only go together because of the
architecture of the system. As for liberating, I think of the ideas of
negative and positive liberty. Positive liberty in this case ==
hackability.

Some of the video-recorded presentations have been a very nice
introduction. Perhaps we could embed one on the home-page. If we do
that, I could help transcribe it, with the slides embedded, to increase
accessibility.

> 
> Pj.
> 
> (PS Thanks Dave for the link).
> 

Re: Guix website

[Pjotr Prins]

On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 12:42:44PM -0500, Leo Famulari wrote:
> After the last exchange on help-guix, I think you are right. We really
> need to do more to explain what Guix can do.
> 
> Hackability and dependability only go together because of the
> architecture of the system. As for liberating, I think of the ideas of
> negative and positive liberty. Positive liberty in this case ==
> hackability.
> 
> Some of the video-recorded presentations have been a very nice
> introduction. Perhaps we could embed one on the home-page. If we do
> that, I could help transcribe it, with the slides embedded, to increase
> accessibility.

How about creating two websites. One for hackers, one for users?

We really should cater for both, and they are quite different in their
outlook :) One landing point for users will be

  https://wiki.debian.org/ReproducibleBuilds

and we are at 100% (unlike Debian). A targetted website begets users.
Interested users beget people wanting to contribute... Contributors
beget talent... 

In my world Debian is becoming obsolete... We should inform others.
The more people join the earlier I can ditch Debian completely. I hope
that happens this year.

Pj.

Re: Guix website

[Ludovic Courtès]

Leo Famulari <leo@famulari.name> skribis:

> Some of the video-recorded presentations have been a very nice
> introduction. Perhaps we could embed one on the home-page. If we do
> that, I could help transcribe it, with the slides embedded, to increase
> accessibility.

There’s already a video on the home page.  :-)  I wonder if we should
switch to a newer talk, such as <https://gnunet.org/guix2015video>.

That said, probably few people bother watching a 45mn video “just to get
a feel.”  So it may be that we still need to improve the web site’s
message.

Ludo’.

Re: Guix website

[Ludovic Courtès]

Pjotr Prins <pjotr.public12@thebird.nl> skribis:

> On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 12:42:44PM -0500, Leo Famulari wrote:
>> After the last exchange on help-guix, I think you are right. We really
>> need to do more to explain what Guix can do.
>> 
>> Hackability and dependability only go together because of the
>> architecture of the system. As for liberating, I think of the ideas of
>> negative and positive liberty. Positive liberty in this case ==
>> hackability.
>> 
>> Some of the video-recorded presentations have been a very nice
>> introduction. Perhaps we could embed one on the home-page. If we do
>> that, I could help transcribe it, with the slides embedded, to increase
>> accessibility.
>
> How about creating two websites. One for hackers, one for users?

I don’t think this is a good idea.  But maybe we could list use cases on
the front page, with links to tutorial-style info?

For instance, “set up a development environment” would link to something
that explains how to use ‘guix environment’ in a development context;
“deploy an OS” would link to ‘guix system’, etc.

Then we’d need input from Felipe or some other web design expert as to
how to integrate it.

Ludo’.

Re: Guix website

[Christopher Allan Webber]

Pjotr Prins writes:

> On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 12:42:44PM -0500, Leo Famulari wrote:
>> After the last exchange on help-guix, I think you are right. We really
>> need to do more to explain what Guix can do.
>> 
>> Hackability and dependability only go together because of the
>> architecture of the system. As for liberating, I think of the ideas of
>> negative and positive liberty. Positive liberty in this case ==
>> hackability.
>> 
>> Some of the video-recorded presentations have been a very nice
>> introduction. Perhaps we could embed one on the home-page. If we do
>> that, I could help transcribe it, with the slides embedded, to increase
>> accessibility.
>
> How about creating two websites. One for hackers, one for users?

I don't think we want to do two websites.  It's better to have a strong
root with different paths to explore depending on your knowledge level
and areas of interest.

Re: Guix website

[Leo Famulari]

On Fri, Jan 01, 2016 at 04:15:16PM +0100, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
> Leo Famulari <leo@famulari.name> skribis:
> 
> > Some of the video-recorded presentations have been a very nice
> > introduction. Perhaps we could embed one on the home-page. If we do
> > that, I could help transcribe it, with the slides embedded, to increase
> > accessibility.
> 
> There’s already a video on the home page.  :-)  I wonder if we should
> switch to a newer talk, such as <https://gnunet.org/guix2015video>.

Haha, I guess I never scroll down. Everything I need is "above the
fold".

> 
> That said, probably few people bother watching a 45mn video “just to get
> a feel.”  So it may be that we still need to improve the web site’s
> message.

Yes, I personally hate watching videos and listening to podcasts. I only
do it when there is no transcript and I am on a long bus or train ride
and can't concentrate on working. I personally found that video to be a
very good explanation of the problems addressed by Guix and the
solutions offered. As well as the newer video you mentioned.

A transcript next to slides [0] can be read in less time than 45
minutes. It can also be skimmed, searched, and anchor-linked.

That wouldn't be a perfect solution but it could be done "almost now".

A number of the ...unusual questions people have asked about Guix
demonstrate a near total lack of knowledge about the project's goals and
design. We need an overview like that provided by the videos. The manual
is more of a "how-to".

I also liked some blog posts by Andy Wingo and Christopher Allan Webber,
although those posts don't explain "the whole picture".

[0] I like this format, with bigger pictures:
http://idlewords.com/talks/website_obesity.htm

> 
> Ludo’.

Re: Guix website

[Ludovic Courtès]

Leo Famulari <leo@famulari.name> skribis:

> Yes, I personally hate watching videos and listening to podcasts. I only
> do it when there is no transcript and I am on a long bus or train ride
> and can't concentrate on working. I personally found that video to be a
> very good explanation of the problems addressed by Guix and the
> solutions offered. As well as the newer video you mentioned.
>
> A transcript next to slides [0] can be read in less time than 45
> minutes. It can also be skimmed, searched, and anchor-linked.

I agree.  If someone volunteers to write transcripts of the available
videos, we could put them online (but obviously that’s quite a bit of
work!).

> A number of the ...unusual questions people have asked about Guix
> demonstrate a near total lack of knowledge about the project's goals and
> design. We need an overview like that provided by the videos. The manual
> is more of a "how-to".

The liberating, dependable, and hackable items on the front page link to
overviews in the manual, notably the “Features” node.  Maybe a good
start would be to improve them?

> I also liked some blog posts by Andy Wingo and Christopher Allan Webber,
> although those posts don't explain "the whole picture".

Agreed, blog posts like these and those of David and Ricardo are very
nice, because they show concrete use cases.

They’re also useful for someone knowledgeable about the project because
they clearly show parts that are confused, badly documented, or that
somehow fail to address the problems people are having.

I would invite the bloggers among us to do more of these.  :-)

Thanks,
Ludo’.

Re: Guix website

[Luis Felipe López Acevedo]

On 2016-01-01 10:17, ludo@gnu.org wrote:
> Pjotr Prins <pjotr.public12@thebird.nl> skribis:
> 
>> On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 12:42:44PM -0500, Leo Famulari wrote:
>>> After the last exchange on help-guix, I think you are right. We 
>>> really
>>> need to do more to explain what Guix can do.
>>> 
>>> Hackability and dependability only go together because of the
>>> architecture of the system. As for liberating, I think of the ideas 
>>> of
>>> negative and positive liberty. Positive liberty in this case ==
>>> hackability.
>>> 
>>> Some of the video-recorded presentations have been a very nice
>>> introduction. Perhaps we could embed one on the home-page. If we do
>>> that, I could help transcribe it, with the slides embedded, to 
>>> increase
>>> accessibility.


I thought about this too. I wanted something like:

- /guix/media/: list video and audio recordings from presentations.
- /guix/media/ITEM/: show the ITEM with transcription.

Transcriptions are a huge job though. But I'm sure Guix will gain 
contributors that will help with things like these in the future.


>> How about creating two websites. One for hackers, one for users?
> 
> I don’t think this is a good idea.  But maybe we could list use cases 
> on
> the front page, with links to tutorial-style info?
> 
> For instance, “set up a development environment” would link to 
> something
> that explains how to use ‘guix environment’ in a development context;
> “deploy an OS” would link to ‘guix system’, etc.


I like that idea.


> Then we’d need input from Felipe or some other web design expert as to
> how to integrate it.


I wish I could help, but I can't right now. All I can do is take note of 
this and hopefully come back later with some design proposals :)


-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

Re: Guix website

[Leo Famulari]

On Sun, Jan 03, 2016 at 11:35:19AM -0500, Luis Felipe López Acevedo wrote:
> On 2016-01-01 10:17, ludo@gnu.org wrote:
> >Pjotr Prins <pjotr.public12@thebird.nl> skribis:
> >
> >>On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 12:42:44PM -0500, Leo Famulari wrote:
> >>>After the last exchange on help-guix, I think you are right. We really
> >>>need to do more to explain what Guix can do.
> >>>
> >>>Hackability and dependability only go together because of the
> >>>architecture of the system. As for liberating, I think of the ideas of
> >>>negative and positive liberty. Positive liberty in this case ==
> >>>hackability.
> >>>
> >>>Some of the video-recorded presentations have been a very nice
> >>>introduction. Perhaps we could embed one on the home-page. If we do
> >>>that, I could help transcribe it, with the slides embedded, to
> >>>increase
> >>>accessibility.
> 
> 
> I thought about this too. I wanted something like:
> 
> - /guix/media/: list video and audio recordings from presentations.
> - /guix/media/ITEM/: show the ITEM with transcription.
> 
> Transcriptions are a huge job though. But I'm sure Guix will gain
> contributors that will help with things like these in the future.

Transcriptions ARE a huge job but I would be willing to do one if it was
decided that it would be useful. I'm just putting it out there. Of
course, there may be better ways to spend the time.

> 
> 
> >>How about creating two websites. One for hackers, one for users?
> >
> >I don’t think this is a good idea.  But maybe we could list use cases on
> >the front page, with links to tutorial-style info?
> >
> >For instance, “set up a development environment” would link to something
> >that explains how to use ‘guix environment’ in a development context;
> >“deploy an OS” would link to ‘guix system’, etc.
> 
> 
> I like that idea.
> 
> 
> >Then we’d need input from Felipe or some other web design expert as to
> >how to integrate it.
> 
> 
> I wish I could help, but I can't right now. All I can do is take note of
> this and hopefully come back later with some design proposals :)
> 
> 
> -- 
> Luis Felipe López Acevedo
> http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/
> 

Re: Guix website

[Leo Famulari]

On Sun, Jan 03, 2016 at 03:17:01PM +0100, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
> Leo Famulari <leo@famulari.name> skribis:
> 
> > Yes, I personally hate watching videos and listening to podcasts. I only
> > do it when there is no transcript and I am on a long bus or train ride
> > and can't concentrate on working. I personally found that video to be a
> > very good explanation of the problems addressed by Guix and the
> > solutions offered. As well as the newer video you mentioned.
> >
> > A transcript next to slides [0] can be read in less time than 45
> > minutes. It can also be skimmed, searched, and anchor-linked.
> 
> I agree.  If someone volunteers to write transcripts of the available
> videos, we could put them online (but obviously that’s quite a bit of
> work!).
> 
> > A number of the ...unusual questions people have asked about Guix
> > demonstrate a near total lack of knowledge about the project's goals and
> > design. We need an overview like that provided by the videos. The manual
> > is more of a "how-to".
> 
> The liberating, dependable, and hackable items on the front page link to
> overviews in the manual, notably the “Features” node.  Maybe a good
> start would be to improve them?
> 
> > I also liked some blog posts by Andy Wingo and Christopher Allan Webber,
> > although those posts don't explain "the whole picture".
> 
> Agreed, blog posts like these and those of David and Ricardo are very
> nice, because they show concrete use cases.
> 
> They’re also useful for someone knowledgeable about the project because
> they clearly show parts that are confused, badly documented, or that
> somehow fail to address the problems people are having.
> 
> I would invite the bloggers among us to do more of these.  :-)

How about linking these blog posts from the site? That could be a good
way to catch the attention of new visitors.

> 
> Thanks,
> Ludo’.

Re: Guix website

[Christopher Allan Webber]

Ludovic Courtès writes:

> Leo Famulari <leo@famulari.name> skribis:
>
>> Some of the video-recorded presentations have been a very nice
>> introduction. Perhaps we could embed one on the home-page. If we do
>> that, I could help transcribe it, with the slides embedded, to increase
>> accessibility.
>
> There’s already a video on the home page.  :-)  I wonder if we should
> switch to a newer talk, such as <https://gnunet.org/guix2015video>.
>
> That said, probably few people bother watching a 45mn video “just to get
> a feel.”  So it may be that we still need to improve the web site’s
> message.

If we could have a 3-5 minute "quick introduciton to Guix"
video/screencast that might be a lot more useful.  I think that kind of
video can do a lot for a project.

That said, *I* watched the 45 minute video being linked to from the
frontpage, so... while I think a shorter quick intro would be more
useful, the existing videos are already of some use!

Re: Guix website

[Ludovic Courtès]

Leo Famulari <leo@famulari.name> skribis:

> On Sun, Jan 03, 2016 at 03:17:01PM +0100, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
>> Leo Famulari <leo@famulari.name> skribis:
>> 
>> > Yes, I personally hate watching videos and listening to podcasts. I only
>> > do it when there is no transcript and I am on a long bus or train ride
>> > and can't concentrate on working. I personally found that video to be a
>> > very good explanation of the problems addressed by Guix and the
>> > solutions offered. As well as the newer video you mentioned.
>> >
>> > A transcript next to slides [0] can be read in less time than 45
>> > minutes. It can also be skimmed, searched, and anchor-linked.
>> 
>> I agree.  If someone volunteers to write transcripts of the available
>> videos, we could put them online (but obviously that’s quite a bit of
>> work!).
>> 
>> > A number of the ...unusual questions people have asked about Guix
>> > demonstrate a near total lack of knowledge about the project's goals and
>> > design. We need an overview like that provided by the videos. The manual
>> > is more of a "how-to".
>> 
>> The liberating, dependable, and hackable items on the front page link to
>> overviews in the manual, notably the “Features” node.  Maybe a good
>> start would be to improve them?
>> 
>> > I also liked some blog posts by Andy Wingo and Christopher Allan Webber,
>> > although those posts don't explain "the whole picture".
>> 
>> Agreed, blog posts like these and those of David and Ricardo are very
>> nice, because they show concrete use cases.
>> 
>> They’re also useful for someone knowledgeable about the project because
>> they clearly show parts that are confused, badly documented, or that
>> somehow fail to address the problems people are having.
>> 
>> I would invite the bloggers among us to do more of these.  :-)
>
> How about linking these blog posts from the site? That could be a good
> way to catch the attention of new visitors.

I guess that would amount to some sort of a “Planet Guix” aggregator.
In the meantime, it’s probably easier for regular Guix bloggers to have
their thing registered on planet.gnu.org.

Ludo’.

Re: Guix website

[Pjotr Prins]

On Sun, Jan 03, 2016 at 01:49:43PM -0500, Leo Famulari wrote:
> How about linking these blog posts from the site? That could be a good
> way to catch the attention of new visitors.

Great idea. Also git commits for new packages and version updates to
/gnu/packages would be nice. We do something similar for gem releases
and blogs at http://biogems.info/ - on the right side.

Pj.

Re: Guix website

[Ludovic Courtès]

Pjotr Prins <pjotr.public12@thebird.nl> skribis:

> On Sun, Jan 03, 2016 at 01:49:43PM -0500, Leo Famulari wrote:
>> How about linking these blog posts from the site? That could be a good
>> way to catch the attention of new visitors.
>
> Great idea. Also git commits for new packages and version updates to
> /gnu/packages would be nice. We do something similar for gem releases
> and blogs at http://biogems.info/ - on the right side.

Is someone with a bit of JS-foo would like to add something to show
recent commits, that would be nice, indeed.

Ludo’.

Re: Guix website

[Ludovic Courtès]

Christopher Allan Webber <cwebber@dustycloud.org> skribis:

> If we could have a 3-5 minute "quick introduciton to Guix"
> video/screencast that might be a lot more useful.  I think that kind of
> video can do a lot for a project.

Yeah, that would be super nice.  If someone with the skills and time to
do that would chime in, that would be awesome.  :-)  I’m happy to help
discuss the contents and so on.

Ludo’.

Re: Guix website

[Pjotr Prins]

On Mon, Jan 04, 2016 at 04:16:57PM +0100, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
> Christopher Allan Webber <cwebber@dustycloud.org> skribis:
> 
> > If we could have a 3-5 minute "quick introduciton to Guix"
> > video/screencast that might be a lot more useful.  I think that kind of
> > video can do a lot for a project.
> 
> Yeah, that would be super nice.  If someone with the skills and time to
> do that would chime in, that would be awesome.  :-)  I’m happy to help
> discuss the contents and so on.

Maybe a good thing to do at FOSDEM?

-- 

Re: Guix website

[Ludovic Courtès]

Pjotr Prins <pjotr.public12@thebird.nl> skribis:

> On Mon, Jan 04, 2016 at 04:16:57PM +0100, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
>> Christopher Allan Webber <cwebber@dustycloud.org> skribis:
>> 
>> > If we could have a 3-5 minute "quick introduciton to Guix"
>> > video/screencast that might be a lot more useful.  I think that kind of
>> > video can do a lot for a project.
>> 
>> Yeah, that would be super nice.  If someone with the skills and time to
>> do that would chime in, that would be awesome.  :-)  I’m happy to help
>> discuss the contents and so on.
>
> Maybe a good thing to do at FOSDEM?

Sure!

Ludo’.

Guix website

[rennes]

Hello,

The Guix website(Packages), appears updated with the date: October 14, 
2016.

https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/packages/

Thanks

Re: Guix website

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hi,

rennes@openmailbox.org skribis:

> The Guix website(Packages), appears updated with the date: October 14,
> 2016.
>
> https://www.gnu.org/software/guix/packages/

Thanks, this is now fixed (commit
19262a718e97d6ebc782c8dc7e53d04cfb5f794d).

This was caused by an invalid ‘license’ field in a package.  Everyone:
please make sure to run ‘guix lint’ before committing!  :-)

Ludo’.