Re: Guix (and Guile's) promise, and how to (hopefully) get there

[indieterminacy <indieterminacy@libre.brussels>]

Hi,

Thanks for that eloquent and considerate reply.

I reckon in many respects the Guix community is fighting the good fight.

In some respects, your referring back to hackerspaces reinforces my 
feeling that that is an example where they need greater attention (and 
that our onus is not to solve all problems).

At our end I think more pressure and greater expectations should be made 
wrt GNU.
Its good that there have been statements made in the past, these types 
of things should be expanded upon.
It would be a shame for GNU to decline into a perjorative - this would 
have consequences for us too.

Personally, I dont understand why the FSF site is so poorly functional - 
its login system feels like an arcane pattern that doesnt work for my 
annual edit to attend Guix Days.

Practically speaking, I think Efraim's suggestion to be ideal.
Putting funding in place for those deserving to attend an activity but 
who would otherwise struggle is proportionate and egalitarian.

I would extend this and like the Guix Foundation to assist with visa 
applications if this would expediate attendance from abroad.

Kind regards,


Jonathan



On 2024-10-27 11:47, Ekaitz Zarraga wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On 2024-10-27 11:00, indieterminacy wrote:
>> I think a useful measurement of any community is the diversity within 
>> it.
> 
> I do think we are a pretty diverse group.
> 
> But it all comes to what you consider diverse. Some people brought this 
> conversation during the Guix Days, probably ignoring the fact that we 
> had people coming from all over the world. I don't know what was their 
> definition of diversity at that moment.
> 
> On the other hand, we have something in common, so it's really hard to 
> be diverse in the broad sense. Should we include people that like 
> proprietary software, too? Those are also people, and I'm sure they 
> would feel uncomfortable between us.
> 
> This is not to say we shouldn't try to make things better and more 
> welcoming, of course we should. But I don't think "diversity" actually 
> means that much as a measure because I don't think it's an absolute 
> concept and I think it's very easy to misunderstand.
> 
> On the other hand, I don't think we can change the world deeply. If in 
> a community women are not allowed to use computers, people coming from 
> that community are less likely to be women, and Guix is just suffering 
> the symptoms of the problem. It's not in Guix hands to go there and fix 
> the problem (I wish we could!).
> 
> I think the kind of diversity we can try to encourage is the one we 
> have, and it's actually working quite well: we share our opinions, and 
> they very different from one to another and point out when we think 
> something is not right.
> 
> I don't think we are acting like a cult.
> 
> But that's just my opinion, which is also not very relevant. In the end 
> it all comes to the same point I mentioned in my original email: it's 
> really hard to measure.
> 
> And with hard to measure I mean:
> 
> - How do you measure if Guix is diverse enough? Is there a universal 
> diversity scale? Does a high diversity according to whatever scale we 
> use ensure Guix is going to be in a better shape?
> - And for the GNU/non-GNU issue. Can we know before taking a decision 
> if it's actually going to bring more contributors to the project?
> - Same with the Git Forges. We have been discussing this for long, but 
> using, say, GitLab is going to impact on the amount and quality of the 
> contributions to Guix?
> 
> I don't think software projects are a comfortable place for people to 
> join and have fun, feel included or fulfill any social needs they may 
> have. That's not their goal. They can be fulfilling, but that's not the 
> main goal of the thing. (it might be the goal of a hackerspace)
> 
> The goal is to make great software, and that, weather we like it or 
> not, is an extremely elitist thing. Most of the people in the universe 
> are not able to make good software. Most of us studied in good 
> universities, have a computer available at any time and have free time 
> to spend here writing tremendous walls of text. Or even more, we have 
> had the privilege to be taught that diversity is important.
> 
> I'm not saying this has to be an uncomfortable place (in fact, the goal 
> of the original thread is to make it more comfortable), but we 
> shouldn't forget why we are here.
> 
> And some of the proposals I mentioned come from a good heart, I can 
> agree with them and I appreciate, but in the end it's not clear that 
> they are going to help us with our mission: bring the greatest software 
> to the people, so they enjoy their computing freely. That's why I try 
> to be cautious before taking a decision in those lines.
> 
> The good part is we can still make friends and all.
> 
> Ekaitz