From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp11.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id MC3uBBu1EmJwYgAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 22:39:39 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp11.migadu.com with LMTPS id mN4sAhu1EmKEhgAA9RJhRA (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 22:39:39 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A708403C9 for ; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 22:39:38 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:39370 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nLtvd-0004MU-KC for larch@yhetil.org; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 16:39:37 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:60264) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nLtvP-0004Jl-78 for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 16:39:23 -0500 Received: from sender4-op-o12.zoho.com ([136.143.188.12]:17259) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nLtvM-0001iG-D8 for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 16:39:22 -0500 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1645393156; cv=none; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; b=Bq3WShjkEpGSUU69Lc1bRZqJhZk4/5EM1jtkr9Lqfgv4HrpQXHOWpW+t5zyczuMoH2fPC1D3e0nT5Yrlg7pMP2GXdNBcATZQ2sCJnNa0QATN1wPHILcx+gKA1dqv5BH1b0VLUnKDsRKdMipxEKZWXBiHXXZm8NxNL8Fbxt1nu6A= ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; t=1645393156; h=Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Date:From:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Message-ID:References:Subject:To; bh=uKBzTEfxwWAyV78gL/ZVsGwvw/QGPLwFbYvuXxJ3DB8=; b=UWAAgzkJ2QbItxSyNC01Ie/2+NtyVEjHXBqAdBLlU7gEVScUlA0OnNU9/Wi2Q45Vb40uQw9zbCtwdtJs36MGhbKTOshO7rzUHU4+bRxIQpVHbQ9KbB2IJun2Ma6Y40hIPYwACDIvXhnAdtz8iz2zHDm8BBXW6p72SPA9GudXjBA= ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.zohomail.com; dkim=pass header.i=excalamus.com; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=matt@excalamus.com; dmarc=pass header.from= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1645393156; s=zmail; d=excalamus.com; i=matt@excalamus.com; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; bh=uKBzTEfxwWAyV78gL/ZVsGwvw/QGPLwFbYvuXxJ3DB8=; b=O+nJtll+gPgz6Dnfp1oQSVn+loSzY4Qc0BOlEaNhB7AtVU+D1TkJExsv2zdwUHkN VwTF5TdMfWSvnY1hME26gJLzN6Un+yHQbGpZsBX+LJHY1EPiqIw/ZCRNaGnzYT3rIpl uLreW7t69g3J/z8JiZ2DoD4kTPfDTeEfWtR7z2XI= Received: from mail.zoho.com by mx.zohomail.com with SMTP id 1645393153831982.5677492246834; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 13:39:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 16:39:13 -0500 From: Matt To: "Vagrant Cascadian" Message-ID: <17f19130f0e.b18e371c614957.2840578072764301740@excalamus.com> In-Reply-To: <87zgmlpeq9.fsf@contorta> References: <87tucujmgk.fsf@contorta> <17f1532c56f.117a0ef0f577876.7300060614750291105@excalamus.com> <87zgmlpeq9.fsf@contorta> Subject: Re: Documentation of what is appropriate for #guix? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Importance: Medium User-Agent: Zoho Mail X-Mailer: Zoho Mail Received-SPF: pass client-ip=136.143.188.12; envelope-from=matt@excalamus.com; helo=sender4-op-o12.zoho.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: guix-devel Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1645393178; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=uKBzTEfxwWAyV78gL/ZVsGwvw/QGPLwFbYvuXxJ3DB8=; b=Ci/CzbAk7uVbhcBOq5IoeaUcQ/2pnVhRBQIjDPbCAfiYdW6kkfhzNqvBI4LmNx28FTGKys jAU5Xu+9Xq2IpDe03anueQ67/3jeUSuI0tBXZDWKRlIwDN8sQvfO1RGPboMULYgjHyp+o0 03uRjphw1T4sw/o69JNz1NFZHPortuqchqASsh3pe6GuFYdL/ypu/N7pNNPTrfW9EjNqcy 3AR7w17PNtdSsnZYq/tjGfF4+b4V7AghfvU8Q31sFuja0ZYODQxnjsteS4O1i0cFeH+QEY zFPjYFU7nroezGy16zYWHc/kOoONF4pOa4HmMfnA8aEoy/xEgw+pcuXPHD4K2g== ARC-Seal: i=2; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1645393178; a=rsa-sha256; cv=fail; b=dw4r1zzHtr+hZYO6DRVSFuu1jhCPptzEhlqd33unmK3/TeqEQo7RwwTzBVIbYrF7iuEt2s uWtAKK6QrvQSqfHSdxE8YJ4P+KeXeWOeEaMDc9B35vuQC0uwF2YvhyxvvdZlhWzbnSQ+T5 YTCIq8bWyV8UIPXAMJBwLssf155O8zKrx/8AtgEMUZgo3vaYm28eKxVXCtMvGUNdv8WrYS p39XC9qjsVc5n5wYlgZyytr3j1bn5GWn3Gf8eMzymsS0Vb9fwyd/Hm02JD/JKszv0ILfts tceOuMqRu9hfqXsMML23hcsVVYilNWbFzF8r4svKPY8art2qyhbiVtUPP8XbZA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=excalamus.com header.s=zmail header.b=O+nJtll+; arc=reject ("signature check failed: fail, {[1] = sig:zohomail.com:reject}"); dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: 1.38 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=excalamus.com header.s=zmail header.b=O+nJtll+; arc=reject ("signature check failed: fail, {[1] = sig:zohomail.com:reject}"); dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 6A708403C9 X-Spam-Score: 1.38 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: 6WYa0E+6zZxs ---- On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 13:36:30 -0500 Vagrant Cascadian wrote ---- > I admittedly forget to check the messages from chanserv for channels I > frequent regularly, having personally grown accustomed to the norms of > the channel... In my opinion, it's easy to miss. I had to actively look for it. I use Emacs erc. When I start that program and log in, I'm in a buffer for "Libera.Chat". I then do /join #guix. This opens a new buffer, hiding the "Libera.Chat" buffer and showing a new "#guix@Libera.Chat" buffer. The ChanServ message is printed to the buried "Libera.Chat" buffer. The "#guix@Libera.Chat" buffer on connect has a giant wall of text showing who's in the chat. It causes the buffer to scroll to the bottom, hiding anything printed to the top. Scrolling up, I see some links to various topics. I see no rules or guidelines there. > So yes, linking to the Free System Distribution Guidelines implies what > is off-topic, though is still maybe not targeted towards online > communications; it more appears to be written with the audience of > someone making a free software distribution or auditing one. It seems > like the most relevent passage is: > > "A free system distribution must not steer users towards obtaining any > nonfree information for practical use, or encourage them to do so. The > system should have no repositories for nonfree software and no > specific recipes for installation of particular nonfree programs. Nor > should the distribution refer to third-party repositories that are not > committed to only including free software; even if they only have free > software today, that may not be true tomorrow. Programs in the system > should not suggest installing nonfree plugins, documentation, and so > on." > > People often miss the part about not indirectly referring to non-free > software. Even if pointed to the FSDG, it is admittedly a bit hard to > grasp at times just what exactly constitutes "steer users towards > obtaining any nonfree information for practical use" or how it applies > to, say IRC. Individuals in IRC are not "the distribution", though the > new and long-time community members obviously make up perhaps the most > imporant part of the distribution. I agree, it's hard to miss within the FSDG. Aside from linked (and not on a main screen), it's several sections down within the FSDG. > I only bring this up because I regularly see this come up in the IRC > channel, and if an issue frequently comes up, usually that is a sign > that something could be improved in documentation, website, tooling, > etc. ... and when asked for one, I didn't have a good summary to point > to in my toolbox. > > > Maybe it is now my job to propose something concrete, but I was > curious what others thought before diving into details. :) I think your observation matches what I've seen and I think your suggestion to address the problem makes sense. If you know how to and where to do this, great. I wish I could be of more help. I'm only able to cheer you on and give opinions.