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Sun, 27 Oct 2024 22:19:19 +0000 (UTC) Received: from smtp.soverin.net (smtp.soverin.net [10.10.4.100]) by soverin.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4Xc9sy3rl5zHS; Sun, 27 Oct 2024 22:19:18 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=elenq.tech; s=soverin1; t=1730067558; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:autocrypt:autocrypt; bh=Z2IqxsBvmhhwXKwcl1t0EyCz8SOlb5xgG0PctgMS8RY=; b=bqKPsUxJCRHRQasZ+rQQlETTR3LRuNnWYNK+BEf0aGUtw3Krpb2zAweC50RrmVbenFLeuN HQg06HOtnQWf1ulaaEYxykxR3xmv8tUjwDRac82L6ArqwvWnhJQ9qOPoQ4DTS97yqIvxXg 5KejW1pHcTlN+eaIvFzM95tmwH7OToyscW99TwzkqneDgczNHa3c6fm9VIjpaq63Sziekz e9ZVVoOFccoRbeZ8txUCwfHmQuZqLRttYSAXzNJm4AzPCS52EIaUw+w/sPJkZdnDIvonGS Xpgm5wiRlDZ4HpljJ5F+UV8zWIyG/Hu/o5Asgas5fpT3HqTbEJx/LoufFZWrKQ== Message-ID: <17c7f91c-649c-4d0d-b318-ce6149e6d195@elenq.tech> Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2024 23:19:12 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Guix (and Guile's) promise, and how to (hopefully) get there To: "Thompson, David" Cc: paul , guix-devel References: <02559f63-35e6-4159-9d4c-e1d423aad3be@elenq.tech> <8b58064321ae06543061ffaa843e4267@libre.brussels> <5e7b06af-96f4-4264-a67f-7b8914b3eab1@elenq.tech> <4379269f-7c17-43be-836c-babf883fd2bf@autistici.org> <206e6eb0-7bc2-4b5b-bf1d-3e016926633a@elenq.tech> Content-Language: en-US, es-ES, eu From: Ekaitz Zarraga Autocrypt: addr=ekaitz@elenq.tech; 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charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spampanel-Class: ham Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.233.34.30; envelope-from=ekaitz@elenq.tech; helo=dane.soverin.net X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_CERTIFIED_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -4.13 X-Spam-Score: -4.13 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 2ACB9802B3 X-Migadu-Scanner: mx13.migadu.com X-TUID: UIRebZxBhGj3 On 2024-10-27 22:31, Thompson, David wrote: > On Sun, Oct 27, 2024 at 3:13 PM Ekaitz Zarraga wrote: >> >> Many people on this project have tried to change GNU from the inside and >> are very critical with the FSF (see the https://gnu.tools/). I think >> that's also a good way to do things, changing them from the inside. >> Fixing them for all our friends. Honestly, the argument of getting >> distance with GNU and the FSF is too simplistic to be taken seriously. > > Changing GNU/FSF from the inside has been a losing strategy for at > least a decade, as a conservative estimate. Nothing has meaningfully > changed for the better and the situation continues to deteriorate both > socially and infrastructurally. Many have tried to reform GNU, all > have failed. Some burn out and never return. Those that remain choose > to inhabit the fringes; projects that are historically GNU but in > practice are no longer concerned with the project as a whole (Guile > and Guix, for example.) We unsubscribe from gnu-prog-discuss and move > on. Thinking that GNU can be changed at this point is what is truly > too simplistic to be taken seriously. The GNU brand is and has been a > net negative for Guix. Juli did a great job describing why in an > earlier message. Every conversation about Guix I stumble upon online > inevitably derails into a negative discussion about GNU and it's hard > to break through the noise to explain that Guix is really cool, > actually. It's not priority #1, but we gotta eschew GNU. > > - Dave Hi Dave, I know the gnu.tools have failed to reach their goal, but it should help to tell those who don't like Guix just because of the ties to GNU that our way to GNU is a little bit different that the one they may not like. In any case, it wasn't the main point of my argument. I don't find Juli's explanation to be universal, neither yours. We all know how the drama is handled in the GNU/Linux world: everybody is wiling to be heated about things and choose sides. But in the end of the day all those heated arguments really mean anything? I don't think so. The online environments we take part in (yours and mine have some overlap) are very biased. VERY. I think you are underestimating what GNU and the FSF mean to people. More specifically, what they mean to people that is part of Guix. At this very moment, we just cannot cut ties to the FSF as far as I understood. I don't know if cutting ties with GNU would change anything in that regard. But as you say, it's not the priority number 1. And we don't know for sure, because it's really hard to know, that is actually going to fix anything. As said, it's just your feeling and your anecdotal experience. Andy Tai already has spoken to say he contributes to Guix because it is GNU and donates to the FSF because he considers it's the foundation that makes the greatest use of the money. That is also valuable, and I think you are not being considerate enough with people like him. What kind of diversity are we looking for then? I also believe promises are meaningless. People that are currently part of Guix are already with us, you are proposing something that might bring new people, at the cost of some we already have. It doesn't feel like a good deal to me. And in any case, I don't think we are in a position to take a decision like this right now. Maybe investing more on the Guix Foundation is a good way to enable this kind of decision in the future. I don't want this to take over the original goal that I had so from now I'll focus only on what we can do. Of course, feel free to continue this line of discussion. Just let me remind you all: I started this to take more care of each other and make sure Guix is sustainable. Please, let's not forget that.