From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp10.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id 2OQtBr/e8mIHaQAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 10 Aug 2022 00:25:03 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp10.migadu.com with LMTPS id 0G1OBb/e8mL34wAAG6o9tA (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 10 Aug 2022 00:25:03 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9CD842817C for ; Wed, 10 Aug 2022 00:25:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:35276 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oLXen-00068Z-Od for larch@yhetil.org; Tue, 09 Aug 2022 18:25:01 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:52320) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oLXeU-00067D-V1 for help-guix@gnu.org; Tue, 09 Aug 2022 18:24:42 -0400 Received: from mail1.g12.pair.com ([66.39.4.99]:18561) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oLXeT-0001QI-BW; Tue, 09 Aug 2022 18:24:42 -0400 Received: from mail1.g12.pair.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail1.g12.pair.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C7B671E590; Tue, 9 Aug 2022 18:24:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple (w135107.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [121.1.135.107]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail1.g12.pair.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 39AB0745703; Tue, 9 Aug 2022 18:24:38 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Yasuaki Kudo Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: Enterprise Guix Hosting? Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2022 07:24:35 +0900 Message-Id: <09215D8A-3AAF-447E-9310-47BCAC2535A5@yasuaki.com> References: <875yj140i1.fsf@gnu.org> Cc: Phil , Benjamin Slade , Olivier Dion , help-guix@gnu.org In-Reply-To: <875yj140i1.fsf@gnu.org> To: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (19G71) X-Scanned-By: mailmunge 3.09 on 66.39.4.99 Received-SPF: none client-ip=66.39.4.99; envelope-from=yasu@yasuaki.com; helo=mail1.g12.pair.com X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-guix@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-guix-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Help-Guix" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1660083902; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=pjljNfg1Hd6LaHw/f1Pgvw5t35xbB2GePUug69SsFYE=; b=hUALfJfjpk7oUpeLyn9BMmpmsz1/b/a40MT/3QQbzldXwMjTRIlveR46frgsFi9WHfd8IY oAMSWEb0CjtY9nb02Zi93cNlgMHq+8b/VPRxSqceU7fh/udu0/yOMySJwQyr7/5sIJUTRJ eQQjLmdkHra7Y9AHje9Yn9qTNGDolBy1k7+8XqqRp310pwQGYmJTqs3D+5NRQb5cm88cXz 9h0gA80ukr8+ro+xO2qjgGaSjkPZRDL4SGiBzh8rZanANyajYoqxQbfvHknDYmpybPTOz+ Ru40b4o7eWdlyHWhyls0Q0Ljhv5zJbBptltqslH9wH5TdrGxdL5Hg4OgZnXrqg== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1660083902; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=j/cM9fAibSXFSknQ86RfrsCh3F8L4HCPGwXfYApH3aRVpHKwUaia4ea91Og2UTFBDWx43C LCOzwT7SwobgJ1Wj0D3hcWRcvK0EIW7r5igsx/3GsZgLqwKOv7enOclZncuSE8dBA55aQi 17w4mBXTFrUnL+UJ8fip5rZQhJ+QvqihJdgmW4gUkNVlQ2Os6txFLXyR4I/MqTiscLgQq7 bRIQ0IyUX5v2X/vdR0LMkno53uv/Q0QzJnAfbe/R1xISadI7G8oYga5T8lfEfe8Q+uuN4Y XWlgiRVAdZxeX2VHQc/q77oTie0LyCKFBbQ64WmmKG0dWDgU3wXTGF5WgV3WJA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "help-guix-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="help-guix-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -1.19 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "help-guix-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="help-guix-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 9CD842817C X-Spam-Score: -1.19 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: BTg/NjrA3v5T Let's do this! My partners and I are fired up about the idea and we would l= ike this to be developed, along the way we continue to serve customers (or c= o-creators, in our worker coop world=F0=9F=98=84). Realistic, step by step implementation, niche to niche, until we make it big= ! =F0=9F=98=84 -Yasu > On Aug 10, 2022, at 05:37, Ludovic Court=C3=A8s wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFHi Phil, >=20 > Phil skribis: >=20 >> My own experience is that whilst it doesn't require a PhD to setup Guix >> for the enterprise, it is a non-trivial journey, and it does require >> a fair amount of time and effort to create something that regular >> developers/scientists (i.e. non-Guix converts who just want to get on wit= h their >> day-jobs) accept is as good or better than regular tooling they are used >> to. There's certainly a barrier to entry for people who don't want to >> do a deep-dive and just want tooling to support them in their professiona= l >> role, without them having to think about it too much. >>=20 >> Upselling the real benefits of Guix like rollbacks, profiles, perfectly >> reproducable builds, swapping one dependency for another - even in a >> scientific/tech-savvy company with lots of PhDs took a bit of persuading >> from me. Even now I think our company is only using perhaps 30% of the >> true power of Guix. Making all that power accessible to people who just >> want to get on with their jobs in an easy, intuitive way is a challenge >> I'm continuously trying to address. I also hope things like PantherX >> might help bridge the gap in the near future!=20 >=20 > =46rom your experience, would you say that persuading was hard primarily > because Guix was unknown (to them), or because getting started is > difficult? >=20 > Personally I think we need to make Guix approachable to a wide audience, > meaning not just developers=E2=80=94that goes beyond your target audience,= let=E2=80=99s > be ambitious! I=E2=80=99d like to think that =E2=80=98guix install=E2=80=99= , =E2=80=98guix shell=E2=80=99, and > the likes have a rather low barrier to entry to someone who=E2=80=99s use t= he > command line before, but I=E2=80=99ve also seen newcomers confused because= > =E2=80=9Cenvironment variables are hard=E2=80=9D and get in the way. >=20 > Are there any takeaways from your experience in terms of UX/UI > improvements we could work on? >=20 > Thanks, > Ludo=E2=80=99.