From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp12.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id FzNbKzCwNWK5cwAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2022 11:28:00 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp12.migadu.com with LMTPS id yDTmJjCwNWKsWAEAauVa8A (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2022 11:28:00 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B43F15841 for ; Sat, 19 Mar 2022 11:28:00 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:36790 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nVWJT-000151-3c for larch@yhetil.org; Sat, 19 Mar 2022 06:27:59 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:37514) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nVWIy-00013C-5I for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 19 Mar 2022 06:27:28 -0400 Received: from [2a01:4f8:201:1044::1] (port=55622 helo=libre.brussels) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nVWIu-0007Zw-Db for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 19 Mar 2022 06:27:27 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=libre.brussels; s=mail; t=1647685639; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=Jw3OH90kth9zbFY9HVJoljA/mCPUHYui+rrxcpQzNz4=; b=T9oL+kYz5Kz5vojqnD78tnPJWtgMoPjN4ZkEbiKTGvrF5mNBB2S2U8Ax+i/OAE9gZDtvt/ Kyw1dlOVDeestV2cVV4UKw8F4S2qmfCyEpuWT5Ehs/HhhUkB1FFZpROfWMqJjomPAK9cJA RNLyuA2u4OSrdgVoMqLYt0VUmqSKiB8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 10:27:19 +0000 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--=_RainLoop_853_927571839.1647685639" From: "Jonathan McHugh" Message-ID: <0194e6fa2482312e767736d98ce61d45@libre.brussels> Subject: Re: Guix as a system vs as an end-user dev tool (re: Building a software toolchain that works) To: "Ryan Prior" , "Guix Devel" In-Reply-To: References: X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 2a01:4f8:201:1044::1 (failed) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a01:4f8:201:1044::1; envelope-from=indieterminacy@libre.brussels; helo=libre.brussels X-Spam_score_int: -12 X-Spam_score: -1.3 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1647685680; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=Jw3OH90kth9zbFY9HVJoljA/mCPUHYui+rrxcpQzNz4=; b=PXKaHbUEE6kwDOPKvJ8IrjJRY5Ia97PG/6yNVhTA5jJ5kHUUrmmNftFWO4gX35RPsLQpb3 wWH89NdQSBAixW71uIwvEqImE2VjU8VaoMcb+mtqhJdVkgdjkt6Z7PC0uzKHpISlsGxyUI KRnwvDTHu5yuOAJ4szJVqxhg1+n+SU8sBw1I6vo+HMQcoiq4bNLY2xUK4ysNg7CoS2SBiF mxwJNoZAJBxUxyvgmz+jfcYPmwgYs9oyk3QCozZVEI/s35Z2d0FEfcl/HnoJIgVGss+MSG M2rJCEcNd9gR4/M6y5Sekkd13gBZQ3RK5D+GFEZWQmExAbNB10VyZ5reqIf7Yg== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1647685680; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=qqJfsJoGg7Z1oJQjdKI8Bidk70uiaB4oxqWVT9S5BExpCANt5QZIVeQKI6a91xg1kK5vDB QUo2M68bHmoo3eE3lxY3ZID/1KH9QadKvVhigDTIo2TrayRAz49v07ZhuIFlSJycWJNyh6 TUH6MyxmGN867G8+wAHexNlEhggZzOY0+GOtDQ2pEjGCihwcVTn6eLthAP0+t0O2oXBff0 s3Lb2OzFfnzKdvWGeUqTqR5KQSHDRoUrCoI3FpYy66Ja2iIa81KdzNkYUl7bxzjhRFkOqa Akbr0o7oSx+CRpKU3oTmdTiZFplioUKg0l4DE/ru9UBsxdSSIRDD2p1/7Krrow== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=libre.brussels header.s=mail header.b=T9oL+kYz; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=libre.brussels; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -4.14 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=libre.brussels header.s=mail header.b=T9oL+kYz; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=libre.brussels; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 0B43F15841 X-Spam-Score: -4.14 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: mRvBkvUZAz5N ----=_RainLoop_853_927571839.1647685639 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ryan, Perhaps Im being cynical but opening the doorway to lots of plug-and-play= users atm could overwhelm the people heroically stabilising and smoothin= g out the OS. Jonathan March 19, 2022 1:21 AM, "Ryan Prior" )> wrot= e: One side-thread in "Building a software toolchain that works" notes that = Guix faces challenges for adoption because it's not readily available to = users of proprietary operating systems like macOS and Windows.I've witnes= sed over the past decade that GNU/Linux development on other platforms ha= s become widespread, in large part due to the availability of the Docker = for Desktop application which packages a lightweight, automagically manag= ed GNU/Linux virtual machine running the Docker daemon with Docker client= software built for the target platform.A user of Docker for Desktop on a= proprietary OS can run "docker" commands which transparently execute com= mands inside a GNU/Linux container, making building and testing software = quite convenient and reproducible without needing to set up cross-compile= toolchains or spend time managing VM software.It makes absolute sense to= me that Guix is not interested in building a native distribution for the= Windows or macOS toolchains. One of Guix System's unique strengths is it= s adherence to the GNU FSDG and I don't think that's incompatible with ma= king the Guix tools more generally available to end-user devs hacking on = software using a proprietary OS.Technically, I think we could use a simil= ar approach to the Docker for Desktop system: a "Guix for Desktop" instal= ls software to create and manage a minimal Guix System virtual machine wh= ich automatically updates and reconfigures itself, requiring no manual ad= ministration by the end-user. And it would install a Guix client that con= nects to the Guix daemon running in the VM using a shared socket, enablin= g users to incorporate Guix transparently into their workflows.I think th= is would be a compromise for certain, the same way it is for Emacs and ot= her GNU flagship projects that run on non-free systems. On the one hand, = it serves to make those systems more valuable, which undermines our cause= . But on the other hand it provides a major on-ramp to free software and = superior build tooling, positively impacting the practical freedoms avail= able to the end-users who adopt Guix.wdyt? ----=_RainLoop_853_927571839.1647685639 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
H= i Ryan,

Perhaps Im being cynical but opening the doorway to lots o= f plug-and-play users atm could overwhelm the people heroically stabilisi= ng and smoothing out the OS.

Jonathan

March 19, 2022 1:21 A= M, "Ryan Prior" <rprior@protonmail.com> wrote:
One side-thread in "Bu= ilding a software toolchain that works" notes that Guix faces chal= lenges for adoption because it's not readily available to users of propri= etary operating systems like macOS and Windows.
I've witnessed over the past decade that GNU/Linux developme= nt on other platforms has become widespread, in large part due to the ava= ilability of the Docker for Desktop application which packages a lightwei= ght, automagically managed GNU/Linux virtual machine running the Docker d= aemon with Docker client software built for the target platform.
A user of Docker for Desktop on a proprieta= ry OS can run "docker" commands which transparently execute commands insi= de a GNU/Linux container, making building and testing software quite conv= enient and reproducible without needing to set up cross-compile toolchain= s or spend time managing VM software.
It makes absolute sense to me that Guix is not interested in building = a native distribution for the Windows or macOS toolchains. One of Guix Sy= stem's unique strengths is its adherence to the GNU FSDG and I don't thin= k that's incompatible with making the Guix tools more generally available= to end-user devs hacking on software using a proprietary OS.
Technically, I think we could use a similar ap= proach to the Docker for Desktop system: a "Guix for Desktop" installs so= ftware to create and manage a minimal Guix System virtual machine which a= utomatically updates and reconfigures itself, requiring no manual adminis= tration by the end-user. And it would install a Guix client that connects= to the Guix daemon running in the VM using a shared socket, enabling use= rs to incorporate Guix transparently into their workflows.
I think this would be a compromise for certain, t= he same way it is for Emacs and other GNU flagship projects that run on n= on-free systems. On the one hand, it serves to make those systems more va= luable, which undermines our cause. But on the other hand it provides a m= ajor on-ramp to free software and superior build tooling, positively impa= cting the practical freedoms available to the end-users who adopt Guix.
wdyt?
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