From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Jens =?utf-8?Q?M=C3=B8lgaard?= Subject: Re: Reminder to remain civil Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2019 17:19:12 +1300 Message-ID: <87zhi61tq7.fsf@zete.tk> References: <20191009065352.GU8197@protected.rcdrun.com> <1c9dc59c-0594-6921-73e8-b173e558b5c3@vapaa.xyz> <20191010023714.GK20430@protected.rcdrun.com> <20191010164403.rueixfpsv3duntwz@uptimegirl> <87h84gi6ja.fsf@elephly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:34623) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iJ8sL-0002Oj-Lk for help-guix@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Oct 2019 00:19:30 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iJ8sJ-0004T8-3n for help-guix@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Oct 2019 00:19:28 -0400 Received: from sender4-of-o53.zoho.com ([136.143.188.53]:21332) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iJ8sI-0004Q3-SZ for help-guix@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Oct 2019 00:19:27 -0400 In-Reply-To: <87h84gi6ja.fsf@elephly.net> List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-guix-bounces+gcggh-help-guix=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Help-Guix" To: help-guix@gnu.org Ricardo Wurmus writes: > Please keep the language here civil. We don=E2=80=99t need more anger on= our > lists. If you feel frustrated, please take some time off email [...] I agree about the language, but I have to say that I share ng0's sentiment, and I'd like to weigh in for some more moderation of these topics. Jean Louis in particular provides good examples of many of the kinds of behaviour that have been considered unacceptable since the dawn of electronic communications (and before): - Spam: Excessive crosposting and directly flooding personal mailboxes. It is one thing to invite people to join a relevant discussion in a relevant forum (or even ask where to have it), and another to make sure everyone receives twenty copies of your email and have no way argue against you without adopting the same behaviour. - Sealioning: Repeatedly demanding "evidence" or "facts" while ignoring and refusing to engage with any they are presented with. Claiming to be civil while not engaging with arguments and repeatedly driving discussions back to square one. - Copypasta: When emails are not simply resent, but most or all of the paragraphs are copied in wholesale from previous messages. The wall of text in a reply bears no actual relation to the message it is supposed to be a response to. - Arguing in bad faith: Publicly posting an opinion about how GNU should be run is "vile", "harrassment", "defamation" - but demanding the "disgusting" people in question be ousted is making "kind requests", "entitling people to their opinions". By someone who "could not care less what people write about each other". (Quotes, not scare-quotes. Slightly out of context, but there is no way to respond reasonably to this type of arguing.) - Demanding answers: No one is entitled to a reply, and the above behaviour signals very clearly that the querent is not interested in one. This kind of behaviour typically has two possible outcomes. Either everyone who disagrees gives up and leaves, leaving behind the derailing person feeling self-righteous and vindicated. Or the derailing person gets ejected from the space, leaving them feeling self-righteous and vindicated. Neither outcome is particularly desirable. Personally, I think putting some people in a moderation queue is a good idea. In that case, the criteria for letting through a message shouldn't be that it meets the absolute minimum requirement of civility, but that it contributes to the discussion. I.e. that it doesn't just restate the same argument, that is is not just copy pasted from a previous message, and that it is actually responding to the message it is a reply to. Info-dumping is not necessary or helpful either. If someone needs to refer to a previous argument or one that is stated elsewhere (which can't be quoted in a line or two) it is easy to link directly to the email in question or the blog post etc. Most of the good points that can be made have already been made elsewhere. Finally, I am very grateful for the new co-maintainers of Guix! I hope the rest of us can do our part in keeping the mailing lists on track, so you don't have too much pointless work in moderating them... -Jens