From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: "Guix User" Subject: Iceweasel-UXP and Icedove-UXP Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 15:29:06 +0200 Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Return-path: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: guix-devel@gnu.org, help-guix@gnu.org List-Id: help-guix.gnu.org

I recently migrated from debian to guixsd. I was shocked to see there was neither iceweasel nor icedove available. This is frustrating as they are commonly used programs on gnu/linux systems. Icecat was found but unfamiliar to most users (myself included).

After a through research, I understood that there are some freedom issues. The available patches at parabola seems complicated. Then I came across the following in the SearX search:

Iceweasel-UXP: https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id=en:project:iceweasel-uxp

Icedove-UXP: https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id=en:project:icedove-uxp

They both are FSDG compliant and has good security+privacy focus. Can someone please package these as soon as possible (I would have done it if I could). Will be very useful for other migrators to guix as well. Please!

thanks

New Guix User.

From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: guixuser Subject: IceWeasel-UXP and IceDove-UXP Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 20:13:55 +0000 Message-ID: Reply-To: guixuser Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:36408) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hoZUK-0005C1-It for help-guix@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 16:28:21 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hoZHu-0001Z7-7L for help-guix@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 16:15:40 -0400 List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-guix-bounces+gcggh-help-guix=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Help-Guix" To: "guix-devel@gnu.org" , "help-guix@gnu.org" aGkKCkkgcmVjZW50bHkgbWlncmF0ZWQgZnJvbSBkZWJpYW4gdG8gZ3VpeHNkLiBJIHdhcyBzaG9j a2VkIHRvIHNlZSB0aGVyZSB3YXMgbmVpdGhlciBpY2V3ZWFzZWwgbm9yIGljZWRvdmUgYXZhaWxh YmxlLiBUaGlzIGlzIGZydXN0cmF0aW5nIGFzIHRoZXkgYXJlIGNvbW1vbmx5IHVzZWQgcHJvZ3Jh bXMgb24gZ251L2xpbnV4IHN5c3RlbXMuCgpBZnRlciBhIHRocm91Z2ggcmVzZWFyY2gsIEkgdW5k ZXJzdG9vZCB0aGF0IHRoZXJlIGFyZSBzb21lIGZyZWVkb20gaXNzdWVzLiBUaGUgYXZhaWxhYmxl IHBhdGNoZXMgYXQgcGFyYWJvbGEgc2VlbXMgY29tcGxpY2F0ZWQuIFRoZW4gSSBjYW1lIGFjcm9z cyB0aGUgZm9sbG93aW5nIGluIHRoZSBTZWFyWCBzZWFyY2g6CgpJY2V3ZWFzZWwtVVhQOiBodHRw czovL3dpa2kuaHlwZXJib2xhLmluZm8vZG9rdS5waHA/aWQ9ZW46cHJvamVjdDppY2V3ZWFzZWwt dXhwCkljZWRvdmUtVVhQOiBodHRwczovL3dpa2kuaHlwZXJib2xhLmluZm8vZG9rdS5waHA/aWQ9 ZW46cHJvamVjdDppY2Vkb3ZlLXV4cAoKVGhleSBib3RoIGFyZSBGU0RHIGNvbXBsaWFudCBhbmQg aGFzIGdvb2Qgc2VjdXJpdHkrcHJpdmFjeSBmb2N1cy4gQ2FuIHNvbWVvbmUgcGxlYXNlIHBhY2th Z2UgdGhlc2UgYXMgc29vbiBhcyBwb3NzaWJsZSAoSSB3b3VsZCBoYXZlIGRvbmUgaXQgaWYgSSBj b3VsZCkuIFdpbGwgYmUgdmVyeSB1c2VmdWwgZm9yIG90aGVyIG1pZ3JhdG9ycyB0byBndWl4IGFz IHdlbGwuCgpMb29rLCBJIHVuZGVyc3RhbmQgdGhhdCB5b3UgZ3VpeCBwZW9wbGUgYXJlIHdvcmtp bmcgaGFyZC4gVG8gYmUgaG9uZXN0LCB5b3UgcGVvcGxlIGhhdmUgZG9uZSBhIGdyZWF0IGpvYi4g VGhlIHVuaXF1ZW5lc3Mgb2YgZ3VpeCBpcyBpbnRyaWd1aW5nLiBBdCB0aGUgc2FtZSB0aW1lLCB5 b3UgcGVvcGxlIGhhdmUgdG8gdGhpbmsgYWJvdXQgbmV3IHVzZXJzIGFzIHdlbGwgYW5kIHVuZGVy c3RhbmQgdGhlaXIgcGVyc3BlY3RpdmUuIEkgaGF2ZSByZWFkIHNvbWUgbWFpbHMgaW4gdGhlIG1h aWwgbGlzdHMuIEFza2luZyB0aGUgbmV3IHVzZXJzIHRvIHBhY2thZ2Ugd2hhdCB0aGV5IHdhbnQg YW5kIHN1Z2dlc3RpbmcgYWx0ZXJuYXRpdmUgYXBwbGljYXRpb25zOyBpcyBsaWtlIHBhc3NpdmVs eSBzaG93aW5nIG1pZGRsZSBmaW5nZXIgdG8gdGhlbS4gVGhleSAoaW5jbHVkaW5nIG1lKSBoYXZl IG5vdCBvbmx5IGhhdmUgdG8gYWRvcHQgdG8gbmV3IGVudmlyb25tZW50OyBhbHNvIGhhdmUgdG8g d29yayB3aXRoIHVuZmFtaWxpYXIgYXBwbGljYXRpb25zPyBDb21lIG9uLCB0aGF0J3Mgd2F5IHRv byBtdWNoLiBTbyBwbGVhc2UsIHBsZWFzZSBjb25zaWRlciBhdCBsZWFzdCBpbmNsdWRpbmcgdGhl c2UgdHdvIGFwcHMgaW4gZ3VpeC4KCnRoYW5rcwoKTmV3IEd1aXggVXNlci4gSWNlV2Vhc2VsLVVY UA== From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Ricardo Wurmus Subject: Re: IceWeasel-UXP and IceDove-UXP Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 23:10:11 +0200 Message-ID: <874l3hg28c.fsf@elephly.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Return-path: In-reply-to: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: guixuser Cc: "guix-devel@gnu.org" , "help-guix@gnu.org" List-Id: help-guix.gnu.org Hi guixuser, > I recently migrated from debian to guixsd. I was shocked to see there > was neither iceweasel nor icedove available. This is frustrating as > they are commonly used programs on gnu/linux systems. We offer Icecat. -- Ricardo From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: guixuser Subject: Re: IceWeasel-UXP and IceDove-UXP Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 21:16:10 +0000 Message-ID: References: <874l3hg28c.fsf@elephly.net> Reply-To: guixuser Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Return-path: In-Reply-To: <874l3hg28c.fsf@elephly.net> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: Ricardo Wurmus Cc: "guix-devel\\@gnu.org" , "help-guix\\@gnu.org" List-Id: help-guix.gnu.org > We offer Icecat. OMG! Please read the bottom portion of my previous email. thanks. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Ricardo Wurmus Subject: Re: IceWeasel-UXP and IceDove-UXP Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 23:50:20 +0200 Message-ID: <8736j1g0ec.fsf@elephly.net> References: <874l3hg28c.fsf@elephly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Return-path: In-reply-to: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: guixuser Cc: "guix-devel@gnu.org" , "help-guix@gnu.org" List-Id: help-guix.gnu.org guixuser writes: >> We offer Icecat. > > OMG! Please read the bottom portion of my previous email. I did and offered an available alternative. Please note that your writing style comes across as needlessly aggressive and demanding. You may find that people are more willing to help you if you change that. -- Ricardo From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: guixuser Subject: Re: IceWeasel-UXP and IceDove-UXP Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 21:53:12 +0000 Message-ID: References: <874l3hg28c.fsf@elephly.net> Reply-To: guixuser Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Return-path: In-Reply-To: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: "me@tobias.gr" Cc: "guix-devel\\@gnu.org" , "help-guix\\@gnu.org" List-Id: help-guix.gnu.org [use this thread] Budget? Are you serious? Any distro has to focus on their basic things like= email and browser for new user; at least if project wants to grow and acco= mmodate new users. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: guixuser Subject: Re: IceWeasel-UXP and IceDove-UXP Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 21:56:21 +0000 Message-ID: References: <874l3hg28c.fsf@elephly.net> <8736j1g0ec.fsf@elephly.net> Reply-To: guixuser Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Return-path: In-Reply-To: <8736j1g0ec.fsf@elephly.net> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: Ricardo Wurmus Cc: "guix-devel\\@gnu.org" , "help-guix\\@gnu.org" List-Id: help-guix.gnu.org > I did and offered an available alternative. ... ? > Please note that your writing style comes across as needlessly > aggressive and demanding. You may find that people are more willing to > help you if you change that. My intention was not to be aggressive. I sorry if it looked that way. Just = a newbie asking for help. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Jelle Licht Subject: Re: IceWeasel-UXP and IceDove-UXP Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 00:58:31 +0200 Message-ID: <87lfwttyw8.fsf@jlicht.xyz> References: <874l3hg28c.fsf@elephly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Return-path: In-Reply-To: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: guixuser , "me@tobias.gr" Cc: "guix-devel\\@gnu.org" , "help-guix\\@gnu.org" List-Id: help-guix.gnu.org Hey guixuser, guixuser writes: > [use this thread] > > Budget? Are you serious? Any distro has to focus on their basic things like email and browser for new user; at least if project wants to grow and accommodate new users. For at least your browsing needs, I know of two options. Guix currently has IceCat, which is as close to FireFox as you can get while still being a FSDG-distro. I assume that if one is used to IceWeasel, using IceCat should feel very familiar. The only iffy part is working with extensions that are not yet available in the IceCat upstream list of supported web extensions. There is also an `ungoogled-chromium' package, but be aware that this can take quite some time to build on your local machine if no binary substitutes are available. Getting used to the guix way of doing things can take some time and effort, but it is IMHO definitely worth the investment. Guix empowers users to exert control over their computing in a way that few other software does. If you run into any unclear steps in the documentation or are missing packages, there are usually people available on the mailing list or on #guix on the Freenode IRC network to help you figure out how to get something working. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Tobias Geerinckx-Rice Subject: Re: IceWeasel-UXP and IceDove-UXP Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 01:57:07 +0200 Message-ID: <87d0i5k27g.fsf@nckx> References: <874l3hg28c.fsf@elephly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:57691) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hockY-0005la-I0 for help-guix@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 19:57:19 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hockX-00068S-G6 for help-guix@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jul 2019 19:57:18 -0400 In-reply-to: List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-guix-bounces+gcggh-help-guix=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Help-Guix" To: guixuser Cc: "guix-devel@gnu.org" , "help-guix@gnu.org" --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable guixuser =E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A > [use this thread] > > Budget? Are you serious? Yes, of course. Kind regards, T G-R --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEARYKAB0WIQT12iAyS4c9C3o4dnINsP+IT1VteQUCXTJY0wAKCRANsP+IT1Vt eYqCAP9tjIUcKojybMolzatNPcx+22Fnio+dZTqvC4PkTVIEUQD+KLF8TXdEHxgy ADOmj/5+zHVpm0bV/NS1obeINPtBOwM= =Q/w0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: guixuser Subject: Re: IceWeasel-UXP and IceDove-UXP Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 00:03:42 +0000 Message-ID: References: <874l3hg28c.fsf@elephly.net> <87d0i5k27g.fsf@nckx> Reply-To: guixuser Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Return-path: In-Reply-To: <87d0i5k27g.fsf@nckx> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: Tobias Geerinckx-Rice Cc: "guix-devel\\@gnu.org" , "help-guix\\@gnu.org" List-Id: help-guix.gnu.org > Yes, of course. Okay. If came of as aggressive, I apologize. All I am looking for is help. = I do not have any kind of experience with packaging. So if you could do it,= I appreciate. Again, sorry If I have conducted myself wrongly before. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Jesse Gibbons Subject: Re: IceWeasel-UXP and IceDove-UXP Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 10:38:38 -0600 Message-ID: <20190720103838.7ac54119@gmail.com> References: <874l3hg28c.fsf@elephly.net> <8736j1g0ec.fsf@elephly.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-path: In-Reply-To: <8736j1g0ec.fsf@elephly.net> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: Ricardo Wurmus Cc: "guix-devel@gnu.org" , "help-guix@gnu.org" , guixuser List-Id: help-guix.gnu.org On Fri, 19 Jul 2019 23:50:20 +0200 Ricardo Wurmus wrote: > guixuser writes: > > >> We offer Icecat. > > > > OMG! Please read the bottom portion of my previous email. > > I did and offered an available alternative. > > Please note that your writing style comes across as needlessly > aggressive and demanding. You may find that people are more willing > to help you if you change that. > > -- > Ricardo > > To be fair, - iceweasel-uxp has a different engine than icecat. - There is no good email client like thunderbird. I'm stuck with claws-mail, and I reallly don't like it. icedove-uxp would be a good addition. - icedove-uxp and iceweasel-uxp are likely to have similar dependencies given they are a part of the hyperbola project. It will probably be simple to write a package for iceweasel-uxp and iceape-uxp after icedove-uxp is written. I think I can port icedove-uxp, and guixuser can use my code as a template for iceweasel. It will help guixuser get comfortable with porting and fixing packages, which would be important if guixuser is to remain a guix user. Guixuser, would you mind if I CC you when I submit the patch? -Jesse From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: guixuser Subject: Re: IceWeasel-UXP and IceDove-UXP Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 16:48:41 +0000 Message-ID: References: <874l3hg28c.fsf@elephly.net> <8736j1g0ec.fsf@elephly.net> <20190720103838.7ac54119@gmail.com> Reply-To: guixuser Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Return-path: In-Reply-To: <20190720103838.7ac54119@gmail.com> List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: Jesse Gibbons Cc: "guix-devel@gnu.org" , "help-guix@gnu.org" List-Id: help-guix.gnu.org > To be fair, > > - iceweasel-uxp has a different engine than icecat. > - There is no good email client like thunderbird. I'm stuck with > claws-mail, and I reallly don't like it. icedove-uxp would be a good > addition. Exactly. > - icedove-uxp and iceweasel-uxp are likely to have similar dependencies > given they are a part of the hyperbola project. It will probably be > simple to write a package for iceweasel-uxp and iceape-uxp after > icedove-uxp is written. True. > I think I can port icedove-uxp, and guixuser can use my code as a > template for iceweasel. By port, do you mean packaging into guix? Sure I can try that. thanks. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Raghav Gururajan Subject: Re: IceWeasel-UXP and IceDove-UXP Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 13:01:16 -0400 Message-ID: References: <874l3hg28c.fsf@elephly.net> <8736j1g0ec.fsf@elephly.net> <20190720103838.7ac54119@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:60978) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hosjl-0008BS-1P for help-guix@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Jul 2019 13:01:33 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hosjk-0002RY-5E for help-guix@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Jul 2019 13:01:32 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20190720103838.7ac54119@gmail.com> List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-guix-bounces+gcggh-help-guix=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Help-Guix" To: Jesse Gibbons , Ricardo Wurmus Cc: "guix-devel@gnu.org" , "help-guix@gnu.org" , guixuser > I think I can port icedove-uxp, and guixuser can use my code as a > template for iceweasel. It will help guixuser get comfortable with > porting and fixing packages, which would be important if guixuser is > to > remain a guix user. Hello Jesse! It is great to hear that you are willing to work on this. I was just planning yesterday to attempt porting those packages to guix. As you said, it would be very helpful if you could port icedove-uxp and share the patch. If guixuser not willing to work on this, I can try porting iceweasel-uxp using your template. =E2=98=BA Thank you! Regards, RG. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Mark H Weaver Subject: Re: IceWeasel-UXP and IceDove-UXP Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 20:43:03 -0400 Message-ID: <87tvbgb4jx.fsf@netris.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:47084) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hozyb-0006os-Il for help-guix@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Jul 2019 20:45:22 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hozya-00069o-Fs for help-guix@gnu.org; Sat, 20 Jul 2019 20:45:21 -0400 In-Reply-To: (guixuser@protonmail.com's message of "Fri, 19 Jul 2019 20:13:55 +0000") List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-guix-bounces+gcggh-help-guix=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Help-Guix" To: guixuser Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org, help-guix@gnu.org Hello, guixuser writes: > Asking the new users to package what they want and suggesting > alternative applications; is like passively showing middle finger to > them. This idea seems to pop up from time to time, and I think it deserves a closer look. First of all, we're not asking you to do anything. Rather, you are asking us to do something. You are asking us to do the development work to add the packages you need. For what it's worth, I've spent hundreds of hours over the last few years maintaining the GNU IceCat package in Guix, and at least 40 hours trying to get IceDove working. Sorry, but I got stuck and ran out of energy. I'm under no moral obligation to finish that work. I'm not standing in the way of someone else doing it, and I never promised anyone that I'd finish it. Also, incidentally, I've never made a penny from working on Guix. You seem to be suggesting that my failure to finish this work is tantamount to showing you my middle finger (which is a strong insult in my culture, for the benefit of those who might not know). More to the point, you seem to be implying that I have a moral obligation to add the missing packages that you desire. Please keep in mind that we are not a business who sold you a product. We are a widely dispersed group of volunteers from around the world who built this system to meet our own needs, and we decided to offer it as a gift to anyone else who wants it. Moreover, we have taken pains to ensure that you have the freedom to change this gift as you wish, to better meet your own needs. You apparently find this gift intriguing in some ways, but also disappointing in other ways. I'm sincerely sorry if this gift is not satisfactory to you, but please understand that we are under no obligation to do anything more for you. That's not an insult, it's simply me saying that you have no right to demand more of me. If you don't like the gift, don't use it. No one is pushing it on you. If you invited me to your home for dinner, and I didn't like the food, should I feel entitled to demand that you go back into the kitchen and cook my chosen dish? If you told me "you're free to use the kitchen to cook it yourself", should I take that as an insult? Mark