guix pull performance

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* guix pull performance
@ 2023-10-12 11:03 Emmanuel Beffara
  2023-10-12 11:24 ` Ignas Lapėnas
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Emmanuel Beffara @ 2023-10-12 11:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: help-guix

Hello Guix,

I am having performance issues with Guix operations since a few weeks.
Concretely, any call to `guix pull` takes approximately 10 minutes to finish,
on a reasonably powerful machine (Core i7, 12 cores, 16G RAM, 1 TB SSD drive
with plenty of available space), and this even if rerun `guix pull` when
nothing has changed. I did not note the precise time or context where things
changed, unfortunately, but not long ago this was way under a minute for a
pull to finish, with the same channels.

In the same context, it takes 3 minutes for a `guix home reconfigure` with a
small home profile and 5 minutes for a `guix system reconfigure` with a rather
big profile, when there is nothing to update.

Is this kind of performance normal ? And if not, how can I diagnose the
problem to understand what takes that much time ?

-- 
Emmanuel

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread

* Re: guix pull performance
  2023-10-12 11:03 guix pull performance Emmanuel Beffara
@ 2023-10-12 11:24 ` Ignas Lapėnas
  2023-10-12 13:51   ` Emmanuel Beffara
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Ignas Lapėnas @ 2023-10-12 11:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Emmanuel Beffara; +Cc: help-guix

Hi,

I’m fairly new to the Guix scene, but recently there was a discussion about it
on devel-guix@gnu.org mailing list. So far it works as designed, because every
time you use guix pull, they have to recompile every package definition.
I’m a complete pleb when it comes to guile development, so take it with a heavy
grain of salt.

You can check for more information in the devel archive:
<https://lists.gnu.org/archive/cgi-bin/namazu.cgi?query=Guix+pull+speed&submit=Search%21&idxname=guix-devel&max=20&result=normal&sort=score>

Hope that helps,
Ignas

Emmanuel Beffara <manu@beffara.org> writes:

> Hello Guix,
>
> I am having performance issues with Guix operations since a few weeks.
> Concretely, any call to `guix pull` takes approximately 10 minutes to finish,
> on a reasonably powerful machine (Core i7, 12 cores, 16G RAM, 1 TB SSD drive
> with plenty of available space), and this even if rerun `guix pull` when
> nothing has changed. I did not note the precise time or context where things
> changed, unfortunately, but not long ago this was way under a minute for a
> pull to finish, with the same channels.
>
> In the same context, it takes 3 minutes for a `guix home reconfigure` with a
> small home profile and 5 minutes for a `guix system reconfigure` with a rather
> big profile, when there is nothing to update.
>
> Is this kind of performance normal ? And if not, how can I diagnose the
> problem to understand what takes that much time ?

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread

* Re: guix pull performance
  2023-10-12 11:24 ` Ignas Lapėnas
@ 2023-10-12 13:51   ` Emmanuel Beffara
  2023-10-12 17:02     ` Simon Tournier
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Emmanuel Beffara @ 2023-10-12 13:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ignas Lapėnas; +Cc: help-guix

De Ignas Lapėnas le 12/10/2023 à 13:24:
> I’m fairly new to the Guix scene, but recently there was a discussion about it
> on devel-guix@gnu.org mailing list. So far it works as designed, because every
> time you use guix pull, they have to recompile every package definition.
> I’m a complete pleb when it comes to guile development, so take it with a heavy
> grain of salt.
> 
> You can check for more information in the devel archive:
> <https://lists.gnu.org/archive/cgi-bin/namazu.cgi?query=Guix+pull+speed&submit=Search%21&idxname=guix-devel&max=20&result=normal&sort=score>

Thanks for the pointer. Now I think I understand the reason for this
behaviour: Guix has to compile the whole set of modules, including all package
definitions, and it is rather slow at that. So I guess I won't expect
significant improvement in the near future, but at least it's not an issue
with my particular installation!

-- 
Emmanuel


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread

* Re: guix pull performance
  2023-10-12 13:51   ` Emmanuel Beffara
@ 2023-10-12 17:02     ` Simon Tournier
  2023-11-28 21:07       ` Emmanuel Beffara
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Simon Tournier @ 2023-10-12 17:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Emmanuel Beffara, Ignas Lapėnas; +Cc: help-guix

Hi,

On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 at 15:51, Emmanuel Beffara <manu@beffara.org> wrote:

> Thanks for the pointer. Now I think I understand the reason for this
> behaviour: Guix has to compile the whole set of modules, including all package
> definitions, and it is rather slow at that. So I guess I won't expect
> significant improvement in the near future, but at least it's not an issue
> with my particular installation!

If it is not already the case, you might be interested by:

https://guix.gnu.org/manual/devel/en/guix.html#Channels-with-Substitutes

Cheers,
simon


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread

* Re: guix pull performance
  2023-10-12 17:02     ` Simon Tournier
@ 2023-11-28 21:07       ` Emmanuel Beffara
  2023-12-01 17:13         ` Simon Tournier
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread
From: Emmanuel Beffara @ 2023-11-28 21:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: help-guix

Hello again,

De Simon Tournier le 12/10/2023 à 19:02:
> On Thu, 12 Oct 2023 at 15:51, Emmanuel Beffara <manu@beffara.org> wrote:
> 
> > Thanks for the pointer. Now I think I understand the reason for this
> > behaviour: Guix has to compile the whole set of modules, including all package
> > definitions, and it is rather slow at that. So I guess I won't expect
> > significant improvement in the near future, but at least it's not an issue
> > with my particular installation!
> 
> If it is not already the case, you might be interested by:
> 
> https://guix.gnu.org/manual/devel/en/guix.html#Channels-with-Substitutes

I didn't answer to that at the time, but I do use channels with substitutes as
described in the documentation. I only have the default channel as desribed
there, plus a small custom channel in a local git repository where I put
definitions for custom packages and for third-party packages that I need
(which I intend to propose for integration in Guix itself eventually).
I actually use another channel with less libre kernels and firmwares, but I
disabled it for testing pull times (and it doesn't change things much).

Now, even if I didn't expect a significant improvement, I am still badly
surprised by the behaviour of Guix: one month ago, any `guix pull` took 10
minutes to complete, and these days it takes 40 minutes (the same command, on
the same machine in the same conditions). When running a second `guix pull`
while the channels are unchanged, it takes "only" 6 minutes of computation
before telling me that there is nothing to do.

How is it possible that things are four times slower over just one month ?
Did the package collection increase that much ?
Were there structural changes that caused a loss of efficiency ?

Or might there actually be someting wrong with my setup, and in this case how
could I diagnose it ?

Updating Guix is becoming painful, and if run times continue with their
exponential growth, it will become simply unusable.

-- 
Emmanuel

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread

* Re: guix pull performance
  2023-11-28 21:07       ` Emmanuel Beffara
@ 2023-12-01 17:13         ` Simon Tournier
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Simon Tournier @ 2023-12-01 17:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Emmanuel Beffara, help-guix

Hi,

If I read correctly, your machine is:

        a reasonably powerful machine (Core i7, 12 cores, 16G RAM, 1 TB SSD drive
        with plenty of available space)

Correct?

On Tue, 28 Nov 2023 at 22:07, Emmanuel Beffara <manu@beffara.org> wrote:

> Now, even if I didn't expect a significant improvement, I am still badly
> surprised by the behaviour of Guix: one month ago, any `guix pull` took 10
> minutes to complete, and these days it takes 40 minutes (the same command, on
> the same machine in the same conditions). When running a second `guix pull`
> while the channels are unchanged, it takes "only" 6 minutes of computation
> before telling me that there is nothing to do.
>
> How is it possible that things are four times slower over just one month ?
> Did the package collection increase that much ?
> Were there structural changes that caused a loss of efficiency ?

Using my desktop machine (i7, 16 cores, 64G RAM), I get:

  + plain “guix pull”: ~10min
  + redo “guix pull” with the same revision: ~2min

--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
$ guix describe
Generation 29	Oct 25 2023 14:42:15	(current)
  guix aabfddb
    repository URL: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/git/guix.git
    branch: master
    commit: aabfddbe8bc16fa82067e88e7d79c8c1bc802414

$ time guix pull -p /tmp/new
Updating channel 'guix' from Git repository at 'https://git.savannah.gnu.org/git/guix.git'...
Authenticating channel 'guix', commits 9edb3f6 to 842a11f (82 new commits)...
Building from this channel:
  guix      https://git.savannah.gnu.org/git/guix.git	842a11f
substitute: updating substitutes from 'https://ci.guix.gnu.org'... 100.0%
substitute: updating substitutes from 'https://bordeaux.guix.gnu.org'... 100.0%

[...]

 config.scm  507B                                                                                                  174KiB/s 00:00 ▕██████████████████▏ 100.0%
 git.scm  105B                                                                                                     191KiB/s 00:00 ▕██████████████████▏ 100.0%
 hash.scm  130B                                                                                                    105KiB/s 00:00 ▕██████████████████▏ 100.0%
 module-import  2KiB                                                                                               335KiB/s 00:00 ▕██████████████████▏ 100.0%
 module-import  2KiB                                                                                               504KiB/s 00:00 ▕██████████████████▏ 100.0%
 module-import-compiled  1.2MiB                                                                                    2.4MiB/s 00:01 ▕██████████████████▏ 100.0%
 module-import-compiled  1.2MiB                                                                                    3.2MiB/s 00:00 ▕██████████████████▏ 100.0%
building /gnu/store/g83w55vbr1r4p1jbxdxlrd00hsziqyvq-compute-guix-derivation.drv...
substitute: updating substitutes from 'https://ci.guix.gnu.org'... 100.0%
 git-minimal-2.41.0  4.6MiB                                                                                        4.9MiB/s 00:01 ▕██████████████████▏ 100.0%
 guix-daemon-1.4.0-15.e0885fc  258KiB                                                                            702.4MiB/s 00:00 ▕████▍             ▏  24.8%
substitute: updating substitutes from 'https://ci.guix.gnu.org'... 100.0%
substitute: updating substitutes from 'https://bordeaux.guix.gnu.org'... 100.0%
The following derivations will be built:
  /gnu/store/02czx493wwvilvc8yc38insc94s0l5h7-profile.drv
  /gnu/store/j2l9k04mp2wdnkvin6xfqxm9j45i1myd-guix-842a11f1c.drv
  /gnu/store/1jf0d5ch5rpjgbbj7hbh7xwmzbvkp6cm-guix-misc.drv
  /gnu/store/7q0mghfzrpd1kb0ckcc9hg2skigq2d4i-guix-command.drv
  /gnu/store/lvnm196rxcn6d2smz76amj0xj3w73pnk-guix-module-union.drv
  /gnu/store/yc9w06iifsb5l3xikkg7idc4jk9ldsw4-guix-842a11f1c-modules.drv
  /gnu/store/2qqzddfp48inn38zsq2bi9if69aia1dk-guix-home-modules.drv
  /gnu/store/fcrdfvhnm36x3vlh5j87mvl9frwwxxcj-guix-home.drv
  /gnu/store/k2mardcbpcsivc9mygzdgx9xyvvxvq0p-guix-packages-base.drv
  /gnu/store/vfbxyq50j7brlqyai7dr8npbgnivjlnb-guix-system.drv
  /gnu/store/z9acy6mp2zbfvn9jzrqs70f4y7x1im3d-guix-packages.drv
  /gnu/store/crwap92xzmvk3crd2nm3mxv2wfy0b6gg-guix-packages-modules.drv
  /gnu/store/fnpq63yknym9wfg13wxfqfnc0mdd2ynh-guix-extra-modules.drv
  /gnu/store/hbz4z9bq05z8kcmp2j686v76n45l2kfl-guix-system-modules.drv
  /gnu/store/ivfpj6mbx12bizh8v4li6as2xd3sxw0l-guix-packages-base-modules.drv
  /gnu/store/qs9bax2627scfrv9k5q2k8qa9qfri138-guix-cli-core-modules.drv
  /gnu/store/6hb81r74zij9vswbh2zqyy9csifv53cm-guix-cli-core.drv
  /gnu/store/qvf2wkgs2jlqkk983jy7qa7wv9mf4mc2-guix-cli-modules.drv
  /gnu/store/mn5kjnwym7hikdgqkxz5v6q5icr2knp5-guix-cli.drv
  /gnu/store/wjmzwngblydz65ylrh7kkgh0mq62lz0m-guix-config-modules.drv
  /gnu/store/4d1ql296bygb0ph375316ny8i6d5m4va-guix-config-source.drv
  /gnu/store/0lcmrv5mx312w0h80lrbjzbp25xhl8a3-config.scm.drv
  /gnu/store/zvh0ixd433rmganyrcb1prcx4c9q5axb-guix-system-tests-modules.drv
  /gnu/store/cbywx3457flfbf135kzn884ik802q2dz-guix-system-tests.drv
  /gnu/store/qzhy5lyr56qppryvldghl22db5j66qp6-guix-manual.drv
  /gnu/store/wg49p4988b3acgq8mcdrmc7p9gcd7i3y-guix-daemon.drv
  /gnu/store/8jxl2mxyj7cqaqlq7rr4qxy0nrhj1mra-inferior-script.scm.drv
  /gnu/store/zqpnys3yd7gnljv6nan936hzg7j81ygw-profile.drv

4.0 MB will be downloaded
substitute: updating substitutes from 'https://ci.guix.gnu.org'... 100.0%
 guix-locale-guix                                                                                                         3.0MiB/s 00:00 | 486KiB transferred
 git-minimal-2.41.0  4.6MiB                                                                                        2.8MiB/s 00:02 ▕██████████████████▏ 100.0%
 guix-daemon-1.4.0-15.e0885fc  258KiB                                                                              3.3MiB/s 00:00 ▕██████████████████▏ 100.0%
 guix-config  4KiB                                                                                                 395KiB/s 00:00 ▕██████████████████▏ 100.0%
 guix-daemon.cil  3KiB                                                                                             4.9MiB/s 00:00 ▕██████████████████▏ 100.0%
 guix-extra  2.8MiB                                                                                                6.1MiB/s 00:00 ▕██████████████████▏ 100.0%
 guix-translated-texinfo  1.6MiB                                                                                   2.4MiB/s 00:01 ▕██████████████████▏ 100.0%
building /gnu/store/0lcmrv5mx312w0h80lrbjzbp25xhl8a3-config.scm.drv...
applying 9 grafts for gd-2.3.2 ...
applying 8 grafts for guile-avahi-0.4.1 ...
applying 19 grafts for graphviz-minimal-7.0.1 ...
applying 7 grafts for guile-ssh-0.16.3 ...
building /gnu/store/4d1ql296bygb0ph375316ny8i6d5m4va-guix-config-source.drv...
building /gnu/store/fnpq63yknym9wfg13wxfqfnc0mdd2ynh-guix-extra-modules.drv...
building /gnu/store/wjmzwngblydz65ylrh7kkgh0mq62lz0m-guix-config-modules.drv...
building /gnu/store/qzhy5lyr56qppryvldghl22db5j66qp6-guix-manual.drv...
building /gnu/store/1jf0d5ch5rpjgbbj7hbh7xwmzbvkp6cm-guix-misc.drv...
building /gnu/store/k2mardcbpcsivc9mygzdgx9xyvvxvq0p-guix-packages-base.drv...
building /gnu/store/6hb81r74zij9vswbh2zqyy9csifv53cm-guix-cli-core.drv...
building /gnu/store/ivfpj6mbx12bizh8v4li6as2xd3sxw0l-guix-packages-base-modules.drv...
building /gnu/store/qs9bax2627scfrv9k5q2k8qa9qfri138-guix-cli-core-modules.drv...
building /gnu/store/z9acy6mp2zbfvn9jzrqs70f4y7x1im3d-guix-packages.drv...
building /gnu/store/crwap92xzmvk3crd2nm3mxv2wfy0b6gg-guix-packages-modules.drv...
building /gnu/store/vfbxyq50j7brlqyai7dr8npbgnivjlnb-guix-system.drv...
building /gnu/store/fcrdfvhnm36x3vlh5j87mvl9frwwxxcj-guix-home.drv...
building /gnu/store/hbz4z9bq05z8kcmp2j686v76n45l2kfl-guix-system-modules.drv...
building /gnu/store/mn5kjnwym7hikdgqkxz5v6q5icr2knp5-guix-cli.drv...
building /gnu/store/2qqzddfp48inn38zsq2bi9if69aia1dk-guix-home-modules.drv...
building /gnu/store/qvf2wkgs2jlqkk983jy7qa7wv9mf4mc2-guix-cli-modules.drv...
building /gnu/store/cbywx3457flfbf135kzn884ik802q2dz-guix-system-tests.drv...
building /gnu/store/zvh0ixd433rmganyrcb1prcx4c9q5axb-guix-system-tests-modules.drv...
building /gnu/store/yc9w06iifsb5l3xikkg7idc4jk9ldsw4-guix-842a11f1c-modules.drv...
building /gnu/store/lvnm196rxcn6d2smz76amj0xj3w73pnk-guix-module-union.drv...
building /gnu/store/7q0mghfzrpd1kb0ckcc9hg2skigq2d4i-guix-command.drv...
building /gnu/store/wg49p4988b3acgq8mcdrmc7p9gcd7i3y-guix-daemon.drv...
building /gnu/store/j2l9k04mp2wdnkvin6xfqxm9j45i1myd-guix-842a11f1c.drv...
building CA certificate bundle...
listing Emacs sub-directories...
building fonts directory...
building directory of Info manuals...
building profile with 1 package...
building /gnu/store/8jxl2mxyj7cqaqlq7rr4qxy0nrhj1mra-inferior-script.scm.drv...
building package cache...
building profile with 1 package...
hint: Consider setting the necessary environment variables by running:

     GUIX_PROFILE="/tmp/new"
     . "$GUIX_PROFILE/etc/profile"

Alternately, see `guix package --search-paths -p "/tmp/new"'.
hint: After setting `PATH', run `hash guix' to make sure your shell refers to `/tmp/new/bin/guix'.

real	10m51.145s
user	2m57.646s
sys	0m1.010s

$ /tmp/new/bin/guix describe
Generation 1	Dec 01 2023 16:33:07	(current)
  guix 842a11f
    repository URL: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/git/guix.git
    branch: master
    commit: 842a11f1caa1bb929c427722ad9d7b7c1ff65727

$ time /tmp/new/bin/guix pull --commit=842a11f1caa1bb929c427722ad9d7b7c1ff65727 -p /tmp/again
Updating channel 'guix' from Git repository at 'https://git.savannah.gnu.org/git/guix.git'...
Building from this channel:
  guix      https://git.savannah.gnu.org/git/guix.git	842a11f
substitute: updating substitutes from 'https://ci.guix.gnu.org'... 100.0%
substitute: updating substitutes from 'https://bordeaux.guix.gnu.org'... 100.0%

[...]

building /gnu/store/k99k4dqavfbpk04bahnv9z36374mnjj1-module-import.drv...
 module-import  2KiB                                                                                               134KiB/s 00:00 ▕██████████████████▏ 100.0%
 module-import-compiled  1.2MiB                                                                                    4.3MiB/s 00:00 ▕██████████████████▏ 100.0%
 module-import-compiled  1.2MiB                                                                                    3.3MiB/s 00:00 ▕██████████████████▏ 100.0%
building /gnu/store/y8g46qfpg7yakglc40avby0grgxc2jb6-compute-guix-derivation.drv...
Computing Guix derivation for 'x86_64-linux'... /
substitute: updating substitutes from 'https://ci.guix.gnu.org'... 100.0%
substitute: updating substitutes from 'https://bordeaux.guix.gnu.org'... 100.0%
The following derivations will be built:
  /gnu/store/shrj2p15crrrsj15yd0yancxq0pwi9qi-profile.drv
  /gnu/store/8gwgjd9rq23hpi9hzg05p4fd8lcnyd5y-guix-842a11f1c.drv
  /gnu/store/7n5jbjagkqi38gmvf0sayfxvsw6r4imz-guix-command.drv
  /gnu/store/82f2w8qgliw8db8aaal9hw4v7mgmzgqk-guix-module-union.drv
  /gnu/store/f3zl4nnjdbfj9zl04q1cn7hcrpdgdqvz-guix-842a11f1c-modules.drv
  /gnu/store/q16d608sr9nn2l4vdhkbr0b5fwf88238-guix-config-modules.drv
  /gnu/store/dlk4i3q2x64p4xqi4w628pbx9xir0jha-guix-config.drv
  /gnu/store/hnlw8r17x70wdph7lkmj3jqba9cqn9cg-guix-config-source.drv
  /gnu/store/lcw7jwv1sav314b3pys380p4vyy9vr8c-config.scm.drv
  /gnu/store/m2pba333pg2c1s0rszvzgrfvvqqzbghi-guix-daemon.drv
  /gnu/store/906nmg79jw2jxqdb1sbw77wkm21ddmbd-profile.drv
  /gnu/store/dmakvrb0nvpvf6g959q6zggygc88nj6c-inferior-script.scm.drv

building /gnu/store/lcw7jwv1sav314b3pys380p4vyy9vr8c-config.scm.drv...
building /gnu/store/hnlw8r17x70wdph7lkmj3jqba9cqn9cg-guix-config-source.drv...
building /gnu/store/dlk4i3q2x64p4xqi4w628pbx9xir0jha-guix-config.drv...
building /gnu/store/q16d608sr9nn2l4vdhkbr0b5fwf88238-guix-config-modules.drv...
building /gnu/store/f3zl4nnjdbfj9zl04q1cn7hcrpdgdqvz-guix-842a11f1c-modules.drv...
building /gnu/store/82f2w8qgliw8db8aaal9hw4v7mgmzgqk-guix-module-union.drv...
building /gnu/store/7n5jbjagkqi38gmvf0sayfxvsw6r4imz-guix-command.drv...
building /gnu/store/m2pba333pg2c1s0rszvzgrfvvqqzbghi-guix-daemon.drv...
building /gnu/store/8gwgjd9rq23hpi9hzg05p4fd8lcnyd5y-guix-842a11f1c.drv...
building CA certificate bundle...
listing Emacs sub-directories...
building fonts directory...
building directory of Info manuals...
building profile with 1 package...
building /gnu/store/dmakvrb0nvpvf6g959q6zggygc88nj6c-inferior-script.scm.drv...
building package cache...
building profile with 1 package...
hint: Consider setting the necessary environment variables by running:

     GUIX_PROFILE="/tmp/again"
     . "$GUIX_PROFILE/etc/profile"

Alternately, see `guix package --search-paths -p "/tmp/again"'.
hint: After setting `PATH', run `hash guix' to make sure your shell refers to `/tmp/again/bin/guix'.

real	2m5.273s
user	3m0.652s
sys	0m1.315s

$ time /tmp/new/bin/guix pull --commit=842a11f1caa1bb929c427722ad9d7b7c1ff65727 -p /tmp/again
Updating channel 'guix' from Git repository at 'https://git.savannah.gnu.org/git/guix.git'...
Building from this channel:
  guix      https://git.savannah.gnu.org/git/guix.git	842a11f
Computing Guix derivation for 'x86_64-linux'... \
nothing to be done

hint: After setting `PATH', run `hash guix' to make sure your shell refers to `/tmp/again/bin/guix'.

real	1m39.950s
user	2m57.294s
sys	0m1.195s
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

> Or might there actually be someting wrong with my setup, and in this case how
> could I diagnose it ?

Well, ~40min seems something wrong with your setup.  Considering “guix
pull”, what is the part (from a quick look) that appears to you the
longest?

Cheers,
simon

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread

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2023-10-12 11:03 guix pull performance Emmanuel Beffara
2023-10-12 11:24 ` Ignas Lapėnas
2023-10-12 13:51   ` Emmanuel Beffara
2023-10-12 17:02     ` Simon Tournier
2023-11-28 21:07       ` Emmanuel Beffara
2023-12-01 17:13         ` Simon Tournier

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