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* Enterprise Guix Hosting?
@ 2022-07-29 23:23 Yasuaki Kudo
  2022-07-30 14:36 ` Olivier Dion via
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread
From: Yasuaki Kudo @ 2022-07-29 23:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: help-guix

Hello!

I have been exposed to the world of Docker images and Continuous Integration that seem spend most of the time downloading and building them 😅

I can see where they are coming from though - the software dev teams will pay any reasonable money for what works!

Have you heard of Guix Hosting services jusy like the Docker or Github companies target enterprises customers?

My partners and I are just starting an IT worker cooperative and I thought this might be an interesting thing to get into! 

-Yasu

^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread

* Re: Enterprise Guix Hosting?
  2022-07-29 23:23 Enterprise Guix Hosting? Yasuaki Kudo
@ 2022-07-30 14:36 ` Olivier Dion via
  2022-07-30 16:20   ` Phil
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread
From: Olivier Dion via @ 2022-07-30 14:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Yasuaki Kudo, help-guix

On Sat, 30 Jul 2022, Yasuaki Kudo <yasu@yasuaki.com> wrote:
> I have been exposed to the world of Docker images and Continuous
> Integration that seem spend most of the time downloading and building
> them 😅

Yup.  Tons of energy wasted and pollution generated.

> Have you heard of Guix Hosting services jusy like the Docker or Github
> companies target enterprises customers?

IMO Guix is still very niche.  Only a handful of Unix enthusiasms /
scientifics use it and companies are not in yet.  I might be wrong.

> My partners and I are just starting an IT worker cooperative and I
> thought this might be an interesting thing to get into!

I think it is.  I know that some companies pay very good for support
related to dev-op, e.g. CI.  I think that Guix could fit very well for
professional services and software as a services.  However, Guix
probably needs to be more main stream for that to work.

-- 
Olivier Dion
oldiob.dev


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread

* Re: Enterprise Guix Hosting?
  2022-07-30 14:36 ` Olivier Dion via
@ 2022-07-30 16:20   ` Phil
  2022-07-30 23:18     ` Yasuaki Kudo
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread
From: Phil @ 2022-07-30 16:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Olivier Dion; +Cc: Yasuaki Kudo, help-guix


Olivier Dion via writes:

> On Sat, 30 Jul 2022, Yasuaki Kudo <yasu@yasuaki.com> wrote:
>> I have been exposed to the world of Docker images and Continuous
>> Integration that seem spend most of the time downloading and building
>> them 😅
>
> Yup.  Tons of energy wasted and pollution generated.
>
>> Have you heard of Guix Hosting services jusy like the Docker or Github
>> companies target enterprises customers?
>
> IMO Guix is still very niche.  Only a handful of Unix enthusiasms /
> scientifics use it and companies are not in yet.  I might be wrong.

I introduced Guix to a company called Quantile where I work as the
Head of Enterprise Architecture.  Docker would have been the typical
mainstream alternative, but for the reasons you say and others Guix was
considered a more complete solution to a whole engineering ecosystem.
Nix was also considered, but we went with Guix in the end.

We have integrated it into our standard Jenkins pipeline and AWS cloud,
and it plays a central role both in how developers work (eg replacing
Python's virtual environments) and how software is deployed by our CI/CD system.

It was a bit of a punt, given Guix is not yet widely used outside
academia, but it ticked all the boxes, performed well in PoC tests, and
seemed like a solid tech decision - and one I'm still very pleased I made!

We've done a few talks on our setup and integration with more standard
commercial tooling - in case you haven't seen these they might be of interest:
https://www.cloudbees.com/videos/purely-functional-ci-cd-pipeline-using-jenkins-with-guix
https://xana.lepiller.eu/guix-days-2022/guix-days-2022-guix-aws-lambda.mkv

I'm always very interested in any discussions regarding Guix use in
mainstream and commerical projects - I think it has a bright future in
this space.


Phil


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread

* Re: Enterprise Guix Hosting?
  2022-07-30 16:20   ` Phil
@ 2022-07-30 23:18     ` Yasuaki Kudo
  2022-07-31  0:42       ` Benjamin Slade
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread
From: Yasuaki Kudo @ 2022-07-30 23:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Phil; +Cc: Olivier Dion, help-guix

Oh wow!! Thank you everyone!!!    I will definitely show our conversation thread to my partners - in fact, right now!!!   Let's make it happen!!

> On Jul 31, 2022, at 01:20, Phil <phil@beadling.co.uk> wrote:
> 
> 
> Olivier Dion via writes:
> 
>>> On Sat, 30 Jul 2022, Yasuaki Kudo <yasu@yasuaki.com> wrote:
>>> I have been exposed to the world of Docker images and Continuous
>>> Integration that seem spend most of the time downloading and building
>>> them 😅
>> 
>> Yup.  Tons of energy wasted and pollution generated.
>> 
>>> Have you heard of Guix Hosting services jusy like the Docker or Github
>>> companies target enterprises customers?
>> 
>> IMO Guix is still very niche.  Only a handful of Unix enthusiasms /
>> scientifics use it and companies are not in yet.  I might be wrong.
> 
> I introduced Guix to a company called Quantile where I work as the
> Head of Enterprise Architecture.  Docker would have been the typical
> mainstream alternative, but for the reasons you say and others Guix was
> considered a more complete solution to a whole engineering ecosystem.
> Nix was also considered, but we went with Guix in the end.
> 
> We have integrated it into our standard Jenkins pipeline and AWS cloud,
> and it plays a central role both in how developers work (eg replacing
> Python's virtual environments) and how software is deployed by our CI/CD system.
> 
> It was a bit of a punt, given Guix is not yet widely used outside
> academia, but it ticked all the boxes, performed well in PoC tests, and
> seemed like a solid tech decision - and one I'm still very pleased I made!
> 
> We've done a few talks on our setup and integration with more standard
> commercial tooling - in case you haven't seen these they might be of interest:
> https://www.cloudbees.com/videos/purely-functional-ci-cd-pipeline-using-jenkins-with-guix
> https://xana.lepiller.eu/guix-days-2022/guix-days-2022-guix-aws-lambda.mkv
> 
> I'm always very interested in any discussions regarding Guix use in
> mainstream and commerical projects - I think it has a bright future in
> this space.
> 
> 
> Phil


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread

* Re: Enterprise Guix Hosting?
  2022-07-30 23:18     ` Yasuaki Kudo
@ 2022-07-31  0:42       ` Benjamin Slade
  2022-07-31 11:01         ` Phil
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread
From: Benjamin Slade @ 2022-07-31  0:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Yasuaki Kudo; +Cc: Phil, Olivier Dion, help-guix

Not something I've tried personally, but maybe PantherX (Guix-based) could be relevant here? https://www.pantherx.org/

30 Jul 2022 17:18:13 Yasuaki Kudo <yasu@yasuaki.com>:

> Oh wow!! Thank you everyone!!!    I will definitely show our conversation thread to my partners - in fact, right now!!!   Let's make it happen!!
> 
>> On Jul 31, 2022, at 01:20, Phil <phil@beadling.co.uk> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Olivier Dion via writes:
>> 
>>>> On Sat, 30 Jul 2022, Yasuaki Kudo <yasu@yasuaki.com> wrote:
>>>> I have been exposed to the world of Docker images and Continuous
>>>> Integration that seem spend most of the time downloading and building
>>>> them 😅
>>> 
>>> Yup.  Tons of energy wasted and pollution generated.
>>> 
>>>> Have you heard of Guix Hosting services jusy like the Docker or Github
>>>> companies target enterprises customers?
>>> 
>>> IMO Guix is still very niche.  Only a handful of Unix enthusiasms /
>>> scientifics use it and companies are not in yet.  I might be wrong.
>> 
>> I introduced Guix to a company called Quantile where I work as the
>> Head of Enterprise Architecture.  Docker would have been the typical
>> mainstream alternative, but for the reasons you say and others Guix was
>> considered a more complete solution to a whole engineering ecosystem.
>> Nix was also considered, but we went with Guix in the end.
>> 
>> We have integrated it into our standard Jenkins pipeline and AWS cloud,
>> and it plays a central role both in how developers work (eg replacing
>> Python's virtual environments) and how software is deployed by our CI/CD system.
>> 
>> It was a bit of a punt, given Guix is not yet widely used outside
>> academia, but it ticked all the boxes, performed well in PoC tests, and
>> seemed like a solid tech decision - and one I'm still very pleased I made!
>> 
>> We've done a few talks on our setup and integration with more standard
>> commercial tooling - in case you haven't seen these they might be of interest:
>> https://www.cloudbees.com/videos/purely-functional-ci-cd-pipeline-using-jenkins-with-guix
>> https://xana.lepiller.eu/guix-days-2022/guix-days-2022-guix-aws-lambda.mkv
>> 
>> I'm always very interested in any discussions regarding Guix use in
>> mainstream and commerical projects - I think it has a bright future in
>> this space.
>> 
>> 
>> Phil


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread

* Re: Enterprise Guix Hosting?
  2022-07-31  0:42       ` Benjamin Slade
@ 2022-07-31 11:01         ` Phil
  2022-08-09 20:37           ` Ludovic Courtès
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread
From: Phil @ 2022-07-31 11:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Benjamin Slade; +Cc: Yasuaki Kudo, Olivier Dion, help-guix


Benjamin Slade writes:

> Not something I've tried personally, but maybe PantherX (Guix-based) could be relevant here? https://www.pantherx.org/

This is very interesting - there is definately a niche to produce
off-the-shelf guix-based enterprise solutions that a mainstream devops
team could rollout and interface with "standard" tech tooling without
having to learn (a lot of) Scheme.

My own experience is that whilst it doesn't require a PhD to setup Guix
for the enterprise, it is a non-trivial journey, and it does require
a fair amount of time and effort to create something that regular
developers/scientists (i.e. non-Guix converts who just want to get on with their
day-jobs) accept is as good or better than regular tooling they are used
to.  There's certainly a barrier to entry for people who don't want to
do a deep-dive and just want tooling to support them in their professional
role, without them having to think about it too much.

Upselling the real benefits of Guix like rollbacks, profiles, perfectly
reproducable builds, swapping one dependency for another - even in a
scientific/tech-savvy company with lots of PhDs took a bit of persuading
from me. Even now I think our company is only using perhaps 30% of the
true power of Guix.  Making all that power accessible to people who just
want to get on with their jobs in an easy, intuitive way is a challenge
I'm continuously trying to address.  I also hope things like PantherX
might help bridge the gap in the near future! 


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread

* Re: Enterprise Guix Hosting?
  2022-07-31 11:01         ` Phil
@ 2022-08-09 20:37           ` Ludovic Courtès
  2022-08-09 22:24             ` Yasuaki Kudo
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 8+ messages in thread
From: Ludovic Courtès @ 2022-08-09 20:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Phil; +Cc: Benjamin Slade, Yasuaki Kudo, Olivier Dion, help-guix

Hi Phil,

Phil <phil@beadling.co.uk> skribis:

> My own experience is that whilst it doesn't require a PhD to setup Guix
> for the enterprise, it is a non-trivial journey, and it does require
> a fair amount of time and effort to create something that regular
> developers/scientists (i.e. non-Guix converts who just want to get on with their
> day-jobs) accept is as good or better than regular tooling they are used
> to.  There's certainly a barrier to entry for people who don't want to
> do a deep-dive and just want tooling to support them in their professional
> role, without them having to think about it too much.
>
> Upselling the real benefits of Guix like rollbacks, profiles, perfectly
> reproducable builds, swapping one dependency for another - even in a
> scientific/tech-savvy company with lots of PhDs took a bit of persuading
> from me. Even now I think our company is only using perhaps 30% of the
> true power of Guix.  Making all that power accessible to people who just
> want to get on with their jobs in an easy, intuitive way is a challenge
> I'm continuously trying to address.  I also hope things like PantherX
> might help bridge the gap in the near future! 

From your experience, would you say that persuading was hard primarily
because Guix was unknown (to them), or because getting started is
difficult?

Personally I think we need to make Guix approachable to a wide audience,
meaning not just developers—that goes beyond your target audience, let’s
be ambitious!  I’d like to think that ‘guix install’, ‘guix shell’, and
the likes have a rather low barrier to entry to someone who’s use the
command line before, but I’ve also seen newcomers confused because
“environment variables are hard” and get in the way.

Are there any takeaways from your experience in terms of UX/UI
improvements we could work on?

Thanks,
Ludo’.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread

* Re: Enterprise Guix Hosting?
  2022-08-09 20:37           ` Ludovic Courtès
@ 2022-08-09 22:24             ` Yasuaki Kudo
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 8+ messages in thread
From: Yasuaki Kudo @ 2022-08-09 22:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ludovic Courtès; +Cc: Phil, Benjamin Slade, Olivier Dion, help-guix

Let's do this!  My partners and I are fired up about the idea and we would like this to be developed, along the way we continue to serve customers (or co-creators, in our worker coop world😄).

Realistic, step by step implementation, niche to niche, until we make it big! 😄

-Yasu

> On Aug 10, 2022, at 05:37, Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi Phil,
> 
> Phil <phil@beadling.co.uk> skribis:
> 
>> My own experience is that whilst it doesn't require a PhD to setup Guix
>> for the enterprise, it is a non-trivial journey, and it does require
>> a fair amount of time and effort to create something that regular
>> developers/scientists (i.e. non-Guix converts who just want to get on with their
>> day-jobs) accept is as good or better than regular tooling they are used
>> to.  There's certainly a barrier to entry for people who don't want to
>> do a deep-dive and just want tooling to support them in their professional
>> role, without them having to think about it too much.
>> 
>> Upselling the real benefits of Guix like rollbacks, profiles, perfectly
>> reproducable builds, swapping one dependency for another - even in a
>> scientific/tech-savvy company with lots of PhDs took a bit of persuading
>> from me. Even now I think our company is only using perhaps 30% of the
>> true power of Guix.  Making all that power accessible to people who just
>> want to get on with their jobs in an easy, intuitive way is a challenge
>> I'm continuously trying to address.  I also hope things like PantherX
>> might help bridge the gap in the near future! 
> 
> From your experience, would you say that persuading was hard primarily
> because Guix was unknown (to them), or because getting started is
> difficult?
> 
> Personally I think we need to make Guix approachable to a wide audience,
> meaning not just developers—that goes beyond your target audience, let’s
> be ambitious!  I’d like to think that ‘guix install’, ‘guix shell’, and
> the likes have a rather low barrier to entry to someone who’s use the
> command line before, but I’ve also seen newcomers confused because
> “environment variables are hard” and get in the way.
> 
> Are there any takeaways from your experience in terms of UX/UI
> improvements we could work on?
> 
> Thanks,
> Ludo’.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 8+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2022-08-09 22:25 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 8+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2022-07-29 23:23 Enterprise Guix Hosting? Yasuaki Kudo
2022-07-30 14:36 ` Olivier Dion via
2022-07-30 16:20   ` Phil
2022-07-30 23:18     ` Yasuaki Kudo
2022-07-31  0:42       ` Benjamin Slade
2022-07-31 11:01         ` Phil
2022-08-09 20:37           ` Ludovic Courtès
2022-08-09 22:24             ` Yasuaki Kudo

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