Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* František Kučera <konference@frantovo.cz> [2019-10-07 17:14]:
> > Hello Guix!
> > 
> > We, a group of GNU maintainers sharing a vision for a stronger GNU
> > Project, are publishing this statement today:
> > 
> >    https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/
> > 
> > We are somewhat abusing the Guix blog here, for lack of a better place,
> > but OTOH the future of GNU is obviously relevant to Guix.  (Ricardo and
> > I started this initiative before Tobias, Maxim, and Marius were
> > on-board.)
> > 
> > This mailing list is maybe not the best place to discuss this in detail
> > but your local GNU maintainers will surely be happy to answer any
> > questions you may have.  :-)
> 
> Hello,
> 
> you speak about „behavior“ in that blog post. But what is more important is
> whether there are any essential, factual differences. What would you do
> differently? What is your program, your goals? Could you declare it clearly
> and honestly? Could you guarantee, that you will be faithful to it for
> decades?

They have no facts. I have and still I am asking them each
individually to provide facts, they have none.

One fact that Ludovic Courtès told me is the abort() joke, so he
thinks that is so important to defame and harass RMS. Ludovic
expressed his concerns to one other person about the Emacs Virgin joke
and something else.

Facts are here:
https://geoff.greer.fm/2019/09/30/in-defense-of-richard-stallman/

Ludovic Courtès is punishing RMS for the thoughtcrime. See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughtcrime

Let us face the fact that it is a hostile attempt of take over of the
GNU project.

They asked in the statement that they want to have GNU project to
which everybody can trust.

While that is absolutely impossible for any type of organization, I
cannot trust those people.

GNU project belongs to RMS. You are in his house.

Thus, me, who is nobody in GNU but free software user, I am asking
those people who are pretending to represent all of the GNU project
and who are defaming and slandering RMS[1] to step down and resign, do
your software hacking somewhere else, you do not deserve funding that
RMS is giving you. Ludovic Courtès, Ricardo Wurmus, Matt Lee, Andreas
Enge, Samuel Thibault, Carlos O'Donell, Andy Wingo, Jordi Gutiérrez
Hermoso, Mark Wielaard, Ian Lance Taylor, Werner Koch, Daiki Ueno,
Christopher Lemmer Webber, Jan Nieuwenhuizen, John Wiegley, Tom
Tromey, Jeff Law, Han-Wen Nienhuys, Joshua Gay, Ian Jackson, Tobias
Geerinckx-Rice, Andrej Shadura, Zack Weinberg, John W. Eaton, RESIGN
and step down from GNU projects, disassociate yourself, find another
house for your excessive and uncrontollable fear of free speech.

Make your "GNG" or "GNU is NOT GNU" system elsewhere. Nobody is
forbidding you.

But please don't by hypocrite!

You are using money of the FSF to destroy GNU project on GNU project
websites! You are using money of the FSF and free software supporters
who are also supporters in the first place of the RMS who is fighting
for human rights to defame and slander RMS.

Please step down, resign, remove yourself from GNU projects, that the
disgrace finds its ends. You don't deserve GNU, make your own project
elsewhere. 

> Recently I wrote an article about the future of the FSF:
> <https://blog.frantovo.cz/c/377/>. Please read it and say whether you agree
> with particular items or not.

Your article is totally fine and good and FSF has already those
principles and policies in mind in general all what you have
written. What I cannot yet see is the enforcement of policies.

Jean


Footnotes:
[1]  https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/

Facts are here:
https://geoff.greer.fm/2019/09/30/in-defense-of-richard-stallman/

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org> [2019-10-07 17:41]:
> Hi František, and welcome,
> 
> (I’m willing to answer questions like I wrote, but if we are to have a
> more in-depth conversation, I think we should not abuse guix-devel for
> that.)

Now is too late, you are the one who abused Guix, and you should step
down and resign from Guix. You are the one who is bringing hatred and
separation in community.

GNU project is RMS's project.

Step down, resign, make your own project.

Stop destroying GNU project with money that GNU project is providing
for the Guix infrastructure.

> František Kučera <konference@frantovo.cz> skribis:
> 
> > you speak about „behavior“ in that blog post. But what is more
> > important is whether there are any essential, factual
> > differences. What would you do differently? What is your program, your
> > goals? Could you declare it clearly and honestly? Could you guarantee,
> > that you will be faithful to it for decades?
> >
> > Recently I wrote an article about the future of the FSF:
> > <https://blog.frantovo.cz/c/377/>. Please read it and say whether you
> > agree with particular items or not.
> 
> Note that the FSF and GNU are two different things.  GNU is not a formal
> organization (like US 501(c) or similar), whereas the FSF is.  The FSF
> is primarily concerned with activism, whereas GNU is concerned with
> making those ideas practical.

I see you have some legal knowledge. You should better review the
legality of the criminal act of defamation that you committed.

Your statements are pure ignorance on what you have done to GNU
project, and you are trying to change the subject. 

> Not surprisingly, I agree with all the goals you propose for the FSF,
> except perhaps one: to not ‘mix our ideas with general politics’.  I
> think free software is a social movement that doesn’t exist in a vacuum,
> it’s politic in nature, and thus it’s part of ‘general politics’.

You please RESIGN from GNU project. Move your stuff elsewhere.

Jean


I am asking those people who are pretending to represent all of the
GNU project and who are defaming and slandering RMS[1] to step down
and resign, do your software hacking somewhere else, you do not
deserve funding that RMS is giving you. Ludovic Courtès, Ricardo
Wurmus, Matt Lee, Andreas Enge, Samuel Thibault, Carlos O'Donell, Andy
Wingo, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso, Mark Wielaard, Ian Lance Taylor,
Werner Koch, Daiki Ueno, Christopher Lemmer Webber, Jan Nieuwenhuizen,
John Wiegley, Tom Tromey, Jeff Law, Han-Wen Nienhuys, Joshua Gay, Ian
Jackson, Tobias Geerinckx-Rice, Andrej Shadura, Zack Weinberg, John
W. Eaton, RESIGN and step down from GNU projects, disassociate
yourself, find another house for your excessive and uncrontollable
fear of the free speech.

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* Dimakakos Dimos <bendersteed@gmail.com> [2019-10-08 12:38]:
> On the subject, I think that the discussion of rms's position in GNU is
> valid but that at the same time such an announcment should be made after
> a careful consideration and research.

There was no public discussion. I am not against their opinion, and
any discussion, I don't mind for hackers, guix, script kiddies, or
wannabes to discuss anything, I don't mind for millions of rumor
mongers in this world.

What I do mind is that they are using funds of the FSF to defame and
harass RMS. The one who gave them GUIX.GNU.ORG website and domain, web
space, and one who has created GNU Project.

> Do we have evidence that rms has caused harm to GNU's projects?

There is no evidence.

He is entitled to his opinion.

For any project in the world, Mother Theresa even, there will be
thoughtless people who are complaining for something.

You can pour cash onto people, you will find people
complaining. Always. It is social phenomena.

> Even in the aspect of diversity and community building, do we have
> evidence that rms is block or is it that we just play along with a
> media campaign, that was in a fact a full on personality attack on
> rms, by going as far as misquoting him.

Facts (even if you know them):
https://geoff.greer.fm/2019/09/30/in-defense-of-richard-stallman/
https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/

> I would like to hear you expand on ways that the empowerment of all
> computer users was undermined by rms. I write all these in good
> faith. On one hand I can accept that if there is concrete evidence,
> on the other hand I see in the web media, people, associated with
> companies that would like the software freedom fronts to collapse,
> bash and drive out a person that offered his life to create and
> support the movement.

I have tried asking Ludovick Courtès to tell me facts. I was genuinely
interested, he has no facts. He is basing that opinion on rumour,
there is no fact that RMS ever hurt "core values of GNU project over
years" that is nonsense.

Everybody is entitled to opinion and so is RMS.

When that Media article came out, instead to show some loyalty and
research the statements, which one could easily find not to be true,
they started bashing on RMS.

> In my opinion the timing is a bit off. By trying to solve whatever issue
> the community has with rms at this particular point,

Let us not generalize, "community" is generalization. Ludovick Courtès
did not allow comments on his page, but there are comments on that on
various other pages, there are hundreds contrary comments already, and
just 2-3 people are joining their "statement" in the sense. Obviously
that is "small group within larger group of GNU maintainers".

It is not community that has a problem. It is them, right now 24, and
I would like to see their integrity to fork the GNU project elsewhere
and call it their own name, as GNU is a trademark.

> is like validating the misinformation that has spread this last
> month about his name. It's like the whole character assasination
> that happens on web is valid so we need to cancel rms. I think this
> is totally unfair. At the same time it's also important to move our
> community forward in ways that include every person and also enable
> people of all kinds of background to take part in GNU and this way
> realize the software freedom ideals.

It is more than unfair, it also shows that RMS has not enacted enough
enforcing of policies. He is probably waiting for people to speak out,
because he is waaaay to kind for this mob.

>      2. How does rms with his afformentioned role undermine diversity
>      and inclusivity of people working in GNU projects?

I hope to see the facts, but now I know they have none.

Jean

I am asking those people who are pretending to represent all of the
GNU project and who are defaming and slandering RMS[1] to step down
and resign, do your software hacking somewhere else, you do not
deserve funding that RMS is giving you. Ludovic Courtès, Ricardo
Wurmus, Matt Lee, Andreas Enge, Samuel Thibault, Carlos O'Donell, Andy
Wingo, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso, Mark Wielaard, Ian Lance Taylor,
Werner Koch, Daiki Ueno, Christopher Lemmer Webber, Jan Nieuwenhuizen,
John Wiegley, Tom Tromey, Jeff Law, Han-Wen Nienhuys, Joshua Gay, Ian
Jackson, Tobias Geerinckx-Rice, Andrej Shadura, Zack Weinberg, John
W. Eaton, RESIGN and step down from GNU projects, disassociate
yourself, find another house for your excessive and uncrontollable
fear of the free speech.

Facts:
https://geoff.greer.fm/2019/09/30/in-defense-of-richard-stallman/
https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* Andy Wingo <wingo@igalia.com> [2019-10-09 11:49]:
> For what it is worth, I have some personal answers to some of these
> questions here:
> 
>   https://wingolog.org/archives/2019/10/08/thoughts-on-rms-and-gnu

I am appreciating that you are publishing your opinions beyond the
GUIX.GNU.ORG and GNU.ORG domains. That is how it shall be done.

> For many years now, I have not considered Richard Stallman (RMS) to
> be the head of the GNU project. Yes, he created GNU, speaking it
> into existence via prophetic narrative and via code; yes, he
> inspired many people, myself included, to make the vision of a GNU
> system into a reality; and yes, he should be recognized for these
> things. But accomplishing difficult and important tasks for GNU in
> the past does not grant RMS perpetual sovereignty over GNU in the
> future.

All of his works in past do grant him all of the rights to continue
with it as he wish. And for the case that he is not any more around,
he has formed the FSF. Everything clear.

> More on the motivations for the non serviam in a minute. But first,
> a meta-point: the GNU project does not exist, at least not in the
> sense that many people think it does. It is not a legal entity. It
> is not a charity. You cannot give money to the GNU project. Besides
> the manifesto, GNU has no by-laws or constitution or founding
> document.

It does exist, and it need not exist in your own legal framework, and
there is something known as freedom of associations, so GNU project
never had to exist as registered entity. FSF came somewhat later.

That does not invalidate GNU project. I am not sure from which country
you are, but if you are saying that "project" or "organization" need
to be legally registered then maybe you come from some limited or
under developed country with fascist restrictions.

Even if some project is not registered, one can give money to it, I
don't know which jurisdiction you are speaking about. If one wish to
remain tax-free on donations, one can register a non-profit in the
USA but simple registration does not make it tax-free, one has to
prove the tax-free status by doing application to the IRS.

But that anybody in the world can receive donations that is a fact,
and you cannot dispute it, you can tell it from your view point, but
man I guess you are lacking some legal information.

> One could describe GNU as a set of software packages that have been
> designated by RMS as forming part, in some way, of GNU. But this
> artifact-centered description does not capture movement: software
> does not, by itself, change the world; it lacks agency. It is the
> people that maintain, grow, adapt, and build the software that are
> the heart of the GNU project -- the maintainers of and contributors
> to the GNU packages. They are the GNU of whom I speak and of whom I
> form a part.

It is good if you express yourself as "GNU software supporters,
programmers", something like that. Don't use GNU ot say "people", it
is not quite adequate, try to express yourself as specifics as
possible to avoid generalization.

> Richard Stallman describes himself as the leader of the GNU project
> -- the "chief GNUisance", he calls it -- but this position only
> exists in any real sense by consent of the people that make GNU. So
> what is he doing with this role? Does he deserve it? Should we
> consent?

He is policy maker, chief planner. Without him, you would not have the
GPL, copyleft, free software freedoms, books and articles, speeches on
free software.

You maybe consider leader only if leader does what you think it is
right to do. That is not how leadership works.

> To me it has been clear for many years that to a first
> approximation, the answer is that RMS does nothing for GNU.

Then you are totally misinformed. If you think it is so, why not
simply resign?

> RMS does not write software. He does not design software, or
> systems. He does hold a role of accepting new projects into GNU;
> there, his primary criteria is not "does this make a better GNU
> system"; it is, rather, "does the new project meet the minimum
> requirements".

That is lie, nonsense. Everybody is free to decide when to write
software or to organize the community to write it. You lack basic
senses of observation. GNU, FSF, and majority of free software,
including Linux kernel are free because it was incentive and original
creation of Richard Stallman. Linus would never make it free, he said
so, and he did not publish it as free. Many software pieces became
free because of Richard Stallman.

If you cannot see his work, I would ask you to find other community to
spread misinformation.

> By itself, this seems to me to be a failure of leadership for a
> software project like GNU.

Absolutely not, but if you have serious disagreements, how about
organizing your own project and forwarding free software?

To cut the story short, none of your opinions are the fact that prove
"that Stallman’s behavior over the years has undermined a core value
of the GNU project: the empowerment of all computer users. GNU is not
fulfilling its mission when the behavior of its leader alienates a
large part of those we want to reach out to."

Do you have anything better?

Jean

I am asking those people who are pretending to represent all of the
GNU project and who are defaming and slandering RMS[1] to step down
and resign, do your software hacking somewhere else, you do not
deserve funding that RMS is giving you. Ludovic Courtès, Ricardo
Wurmus, Matt Lee, Andreas Enge, Samuel Thibault, Carlos O'Donell, Andy
Wingo, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso, Mark Wielaard, Ian Lance Taylor,
Werner Koch, Daiki Ueno, Christopher Lemmer Webber, Jan Nieuwenhuizen,
John Wiegley, Tom Tromey, Jeff Law, Han-Wen Nienhuys, Joshua Gay, Ian
Jackson, Tobias Geerinckx-Rice, Andrej Shadura, Zack Weinberg, John
W. Eaton, RESIGN and step down from GNU projects, disassociate
yourself, find another house for your excessive and uncrontollable
fear of the free speech.

Facts:
https://geoff.greer.fm/2019/09/30/in-defense-of-richard-stallman/
https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@elephly.net> [2019-10-10 07:09]:
> I have previously asked you privately to stop spamming our mailing
> lists.  I am asking you a second time publicly.  If you keep disrupting
> our mailing lists your posts will be moderated.

I cannot expect anything else from you.

Jean

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hi Jean-Louis,

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> skribis:

> * Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@elephly.net> [2019-10-10 07:09]:
>> I have previously asked you privately to stop spamming our mailing
>> lists.  I am asking you a second time publicly.  If you keep disrupting
>> our mailing lists your posts will be moderated.
>
> I cannot expect anything else from you.

You’ve made your point now; I see you’ve even set up a web page to
collect hatred messages against me.

I ask you to stop using the Guix mailing lists for this now.  I will
propose to the Guix maintainers to put you on a moderation queue if you
don’t stop by yourself.

Disagreement is fine; attrition is now.

My sincere apologies to all the Guix people who are witnessing this.  :-(

Thanks,
Ludo’.

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Stefan Huchler]

Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org> writes:

> Hi Jean-Louis,
>
> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> skribis:
>
>> * Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@elephly.net> [2019-10-10 07:09]:
>>> I have previously asked you privately to stop spamming our mailing
>>> lists.  I am asking you a second time publicly.  If you keep disrupting
>>> our mailing lists your posts will be moderated.
>>
>> I cannot expect anything else from you.
>
> You’ve made your point now; I see you’ve even set up a web page to
> collect hatred messages against me.
>
> I ask you to stop using the Guix mailing lists for this now.  I will
> propose to the Guix maintainers to put you on a moderation queue if you
> don’t stop by yourself.
>
> Disagreement is fine; attrition is now.
>
> My sincere apologies to all the Guix people who are witnessing this.  :-(
>
> Thanks,
> Ludo’.

And why are you not on moderation for posting horrible things against
Richard Stallman on a gnu website where he is the leader of the Gnu
Project?

Yes the other guy maybe spams here a bit the malinig list, but the
website read much more people than the mailing list, so you spammed the
internet much more.

It's also not about disagreement, he made clearly the point that he is
fine with your opinion about RMS, he is just not ok with you posting it
on a domain that you don't process. And imply that this is the opinion
of the guix project while there was never a vote on this here.

Is Guix a political Project now? If not why did you post political
statements on that website? So you hurt that project with that move
obviously, how do you justify that?

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

I have no hate against you and never had. Observe the log. You stated with defamation and FUD, not me.

Your censorship policy is already well known. So block, I don't mind.

You are not answering with facts but bringing more and more fear, uncertainty, and doubts into your own space and destroying GNU project, exactly what you said in the statement. Media has picked you up and perverted your statements due you too man generalizations and lack of facts and specifics. 

My pagd is not against your free speech but your disrespect and defamation on GNU.org domain. I would not care that much if you would have been doing it outside if GNU.org website on your private page. 

Guix got a donation of 100,000 dollars from FSF and that is RMS and RMS supporters creation. That you use the same GNU project which finances and supports Guix to defame and slander RMS without facts is lack of integrity, and it was not me who started it

Next time think before you do. So whinning will not bring you anywher but having balls. What you did to RMS is something you are experiencing right now. I am sorry for you, but you asked for it. 

Numerous people have published their pages yoo, I have not asked them anything, so please you arr getting what you asked for. You started with FUD, face what is happening.

 I have no intention to disturb Guix mailing list. I would support Guix even if it left in its own space of creation of free software and humanitarian rights in that subject. That is what I would do while having such string emotional impressions like statement signers got about RMS. 

And that what you did and how you harmed RMS by using his support is unspoken. 

I am protesting for space that you used for your personal grievances, obviously something you allow only to you and few companions who are defaming RMS without facts.

You don't allow me to use Guix resources to ask you for facts, right? But you like using Guix blog for defamation of RMS? Mamma mia.

You never answered my private email and chat to you, right? Would you, I would not ask you in public. Just have balls, as RMS has got the balls, endure it and be happy.

Wish you good night,
Jean Louis

On October 10, 2019 2:29:08 PM UTC, "Ludovic Courtès" <ludo@gnu.org> wrote:
>Hi Jean-Louis,
>
>Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> skribis:
>
>> * Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@elephly.net> [2019-10-10 07:09]:
>>> I have previously asked you privately to stop spamming our mailing
>>> lists.  I am asking you a second time publicly.  If you keep
>disrupting
>>> our mailing lists your posts will be moderated.
>>
>> I cannot expect anything else from you.
>
>You’ve made your point now; I see you’ve even set up a web page to
>collect hatred messages against me.
>
>I ask you to stop using the Guix mailing lists for this now.  I will
>propose to the Guix maintainers to put you on a moderation queue if you
>don’t stop by yourself.
>
>Disagreement is fine; attrition is now.
>
>My sincere apologies to all the Guix people who are witnessing this. 
>:-(
>
>Thanks,
>Ludo’.

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Svante Signell]

On Thu, 2019-10-10 at 16:29 +0200, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
> Hi Jean-Louis,

> You’ve made your point now; I see you’ve even set up a web page to
> collect hatred messages against me.
> 
> I ask you to stop using the Guix mailing lists for this now.  I will
> propose to the Guix maintainers to put you on a moderation queue if
> you don’t stop by yourself.
> 
> Disagreement is fine; attrition is now.
> 
> My sincere apologies to all the Guix people who are witnessing
> this.  :-(

Your problem is that you published this statement to guix-devel. If you
don't mind, I'll forward your mail to gnu-system-discuss, which is the
appropriate mailing list.

Thanks!

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

>Your problem is that you published this statement to guix-devel. If you
>don't mind, I'll forward your mail to gnu-system-discuss, which is the
>appropriate mailing list.

I don't mind.

Guix developers published biased and factless defamation of RMS on Guix pages. I have told my concerns to them privately and on chat before sending it to mailing list. Would they provide facts, I would refrain.

Obviously the thought police is afraid and must silence defenders of RMS and his works.

So why is it problem to address the same on the Guix making list?

Is it maybe double standard?

Jean Louis
https://gnu.support/richard-stallman/Ludovic-Court%C3%A8s-Guix-is-accusing-Stallman-of-Thoughtcrime-on-his-own-domain-GNU-org.html

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Svante Signell]

On Thu, 2019-10-10 at 19:22 +0000, Jean Louis wrote:
> 
> 
> > Your problem is that you published this statement to guix-devel. If
> > you don't mind, I'll forward your mail to gnu-system-discuss, which
> > is the appropriate mailing list.
> 
> I don't mind.

Sorry Jean Louis, I was addressing Ludovic, not you. I saw that you
already sent some stuff to gnu-system-discuss, have to read that now.
But, please calm down and don't require people to step down. Things has
to be discussed with sensibility in mind, not creating useless flame
wars.

Thanks!

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

Problem is that such statements shall be valid all including for those who created defamatory statements on Guix.GNU.org

Guix shall be hartass-free, but it is not, it is outrageous!

Jean

https://gnu.support/richard-stallman/Ludovic-Court%C3%A8s-Guix-is-accusing-Stallman-of-Thoughtcrime-on-his-own-domain-GNU-org.html

On October 10, 2019 8:23:11 PM UTC, Svante Signell <svante.signell@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 2019-10-10 at 19:22 +0000, Jean Louis wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> > Your problem is that you published this statement to guix-devel. If
>> > you don't mind, I'll forward your mail to gnu-system-discuss, which
>> > is the appropriate mailing list.
>> 
>> I don't mind.
>
>Sorry Jean Louis, I was addressing Ludovic, not you. I saw that you
>already sent some stuff to gnu-system-discuss, have to read that now.
>But, please calm down and don't require people to step down. Things has
>to be discussed with sensibility in mind, not creating useless flame
>wars.
>
>Thanks!

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[P]

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Thursday, October 10, 2019 7:22 PM, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:

> > Your problem is that you published this statement to guix-devel. If you
> > don't mind, I'll forward your mail to gnu-system-discuss, which is the
> > appropriate mailing list.
>
> I don't mind.
>
> Guix developers published biased and factless defamation of RMS on Guix pages.

This is what they actually said: "GNU is not fulfilling its mission when the behavior of its leader alienates a large part of those we want to reach out to."

Which is true, and the funny thing is, it's true by your own admission as well. You said that people attacked RMS for his statement. What is that if not alienation?
I've seen people publicly state that they'll cancel their membership and donate to Conservancy instead of FSF.
And there is this thread by a free software developer who helped draft GPLv3 [1].

As far as I can tell, you have not disproven those statements, so I can only conclude that you either were not aware of them, which would mean that you did not actually look into the problem as deeply as you would want us to believe, or that you were aware of them, but dismissed them as insignificant, which would reflect badly on your value system.

And even before this incident, I've seen people say they don't want to get into free software because of Stallman's behaviour and because people defend him from any criticism.

Don't put Stallman on a pedestal, he is not perfect, and just because he founded GNU doesn't mean he should lead it forever or that he should have final say in everything.

ps.: sorry for writing this on the devel list, but there is so much vitriol against the core devs here already that I felt like I had to counterbalance it.

[1]: https://pleroma.site/notice/9nh9bWH6RbrQinMp1M

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Wilson Bustos]

P,
> And even before this incident, I've seen people say they don't want to
get into free software because of Stallman's behaviour and because people
defend him from any criticism.
So, why didn't you do anything before? why now? If it was a real issue that
would happen in before, not now.

> Don't put Stallman on a pedestal, he is not perfect, and just because he
founded GNU doesn't mean he should lead it forever or that he should have
final say in everything.
I think that is not the problem, no one is perfect, that is why no one
needs to be perfect to represent a group as GNU, then, RMS doesn't need to
be removed because he is not perfect, right?
Also, why use the official Guix website to show that statement, there is a
vote of all the members to do that?

p.s: I'm sorry for text this also, but I don't believe in a SJW speech.

p.s2: A social network text message proof of nothing.



El jue., 10 oct. 2019 a las 17:33, P (<pronaip@protonmail.com>) escribió:

> ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
> On Thursday, October 10, 2019 7:22 PM, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>
> wrote:
>
> > > Your problem is that you published this statement to guix-devel. If you
> > > don't mind, I'll forward your mail to gnu-system-discuss, which is the
> > > appropriate mailing list.
> >
> > I don't mind.
> >
> > Guix developers published biased and factless defamation of RMS on Guix
> pages.
>
> This is what they actually said: "GNU is not fulfilling its mission when
> the behavior of its leader alienates a large part of those we want to reach
> out to."
>
> Which is true, and the funny thing is, it's true by your own admission as
> well. You said that people attacked RMS for his statement. What is that if
> not alienation?
> I've seen people publicly state that they'll cancel their membership and
> donate to Conservancy instead of FSF.
> And there is this thread by a free software developer who helped draft
> GPLv3 [1].
>
> As far as I can tell, you have not disproven those statements, so I can
> only conclude that you either were not aware of them, which would mean that
> you did not actually look into the problem as deeply as you would want us
> to believe, or that you were aware of them, but dismissed them as
> insignificant, which would reflect badly on your value system.
>
> And even before this incident, I've seen people say they don't want to get
> into free software because of Stallman's behaviour and because people
> defend him from any criticism.
>
> Don't put Stallman on a pedestal, he is not perfect, and just because he
> founded GNU doesn't mean he should lead it forever or that he should have
> final say in everything.
>
> ps.: sorry for writing this on the devel list, but there is so much
> vitriol against the core devs here already that I felt like I had to
> counterbalance it.
>
> [1]: https://pleroma.site/notice/9nh9bWH6RbrQinMp1M
>
>

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Vasya Boytsov]

I kindly ask to remove this statement from the Guix site. It's
inappropriate, it's poisonous for the community (you can see this
clearly now). Anyone can have their own opinion in this discussion,
but _PLEASE_ can we divide OS development and politics?
There are more appropriate places to post such statements. Having this
post on a _Guix_ website is very bad for community health.
I want to continue using Guix and contribute some packages, but with
such a political involvement I can't.

On 10/10/19, Wilson Bustos <wrbutros@gmail.com> wrote:
> P,
>> And even before this incident, I've seen people say they don't want to
> get into free software because of Stallman's behaviour and because people
> defend him from any criticism.
> So, why didn't you do anything before? why now? If it was a real issue that
> would happen in before, not now.
>
>> Don't put Stallman on a pedestal, he is not perfect, and just because he
> founded GNU doesn't mean he should lead it forever or that he should have
> final say in everything.
> I think that is not the problem, no one is perfect, that is why no one
> needs to be perfect to represent a group as GNU, then, RMS doesn't need to
> be removed because he is not perfect, right?
> Also, why use the official Guix website to show that statement, there is a
> vote of all the members to do that?
>
> p.s: I'm sorry for text this also, but I don't believe in a SJW speech.
>
> p.s2: A social network text message proof of nothing.
>
>
>
> El jue., 10 oct. 2019 a las 17:33, P (<pronaip@protonmail.com>) escribió:
>
>> ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
>> On Thursday, October 10, 2019 7:22 PM, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > > Your problem is that you published this statement to guix-devel. If
>> > > you
>> > > don't mind, I'll forward your mail to gnu-system-discuss, which is
>> > > the
>> > > appropriate mailing list.
>> >
>> > I don't mind.
>> >
>> > Guix developers published biased and factless defamation of RMS on Guix
>> pages.
>>
>> This is what they actually said: "GNU is not fulfilling its mission when
>> the behavior of its leader alienates a large part of those we want to
>> reach
>> out to."
>>
>> Which is true, and the funny thing is, it's true by your own admission as
>> well. You said that people attacked RMS for his statement. What is that
>> if
>> not alienation?
>> I've seen people publicly state that they'll cancel their membership and
>> donate to Conservancy instead of FSF.
>> And there is this thread by a free software developer who helped draft
>> GPLv3 [1].
>>
>> As far as I can tell, you have not disproven those statements, so I can
>> only conclude that you either were not aware of them, which would mean
>> that
>> you did not actually look into the problem as deeply as you would want us
>> to believe, or that you were aware of them, but dismissed them as
>> insignificant, which would reflect badly on your value system.
>>
>> And even before this incident, I've seen people say they don't want to
>> get
>> into free software because of Stallman's behaviour and because people
>> defend him from any criticism.
>>
>> Don't put Stallman on a pedestal, he is not perfect, and just because he
>> founded GNU doesn't mean he should lead it forever or that he should have
>> final say in everything.
>>
>> ps.: sorry for writing this on the devel list, but there is so much
>> vitriol against the core devs here already that I felt like I had to
>> counterbalance it.
>>
>> [1]: https://pleroma.site/notice/9nh9bWH6RbrQinMp1M
>>
>>
>


-- 

Respectfully,
Boytsov Vasya

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Quiliro Ordóñez]

* Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@elephly.net> [2019-10-10 07:09]:
> I have previously asked you privately to stop spamming our mailing
> lists.  I am asking you a second time publicly.  If you keep disrupting
> our mailing lists your posts will be moderated.

Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other
information, on the basis that such material is considered
objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or "inconvenient".

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Todor Kondić]

On Friday, 11 October 2019 01:27, Quiliro Ordóñez <quiliro@riseup.net> wrote:

> * Ricardo Wurmus rekado@elephly.net [2019-10-10 07:09]:
>
> > I have previously asked you privately to stop spamming our mailing
> > lists. I am asking you a second time publicly. If you keep disrupting
> > our mailing lists your posts will be moderated.
>
> Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other
> information, on the basis that such material is considered
> objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or "inconvenient".


Great to see some fire on otherwise pretty toned down lists, HOWEVER, if we could keep it to just one list (help-guix@gnu.org being the least INappropriate) that would be great.

My few eurocents: keep calm, submit code (yeah, me too, Mr Remorker!), defend core values of GNU. The rest is unavoidable appendage of changing times, minds, (mis)understandings and herd mentality.

GNU Guix is an awesome project. However I personally feel about the RMS maelstrom, I want to see GNU Guix grow and wish all the best to its maintainers (oh, and lets not forget about GNU Guile).

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[quiliro]

On Fri, October 11, 2019 3:03 am, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
> Hi Quiliro,
>
> Quiliro Ordóñez <quiliro@riseup.net> skribis:
>
>> * Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@elephly.net> [2019-10-10 07:09]:
>>> I have previously asked you privately to stop spamming our mailing
>>> lists.  I am asking you a second time publicly.  If you keep disrupting
>>> our mailing lists your posts will be moderated.
>>
>> Censorship [...]
>
> There is no censorship.
>
> By joining Guix, one agrees to follow the rules at
> <https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix.git/tree/CODE-OF-CONDUCT>.
> These are simple rules to keep this space welcoming.  We all benefit
> from their application.

So by agreeing to censorship that means there is no censorship?

> Again, expressing disagreement is fine; harassing people like Jean Louis
> has been doing (first on IRC, then on this mailing list and via their
> web site) is not.

So your rules have to apply to him, but his rules do not apply to you just
because he entered this list? To be bound by somebody else's rules does
not imply you are free. It just implies you were forced to comply. That is
not freedom. It is voluntary enslavement.

> My initial message in this thread was directed at Guix developers.
> Evidently we’ve now got quite a lot of feedback from people not involved
> in Guix.  Yet, this remains a mailing list intended for Guix development.

Correct. I have moved it to a list with more interested parties: help-guix.

> So, to everyone who wants to discuss GNU matters further, please let’s
> use gnu-misc-discuss@gnu.org.

This is a matter for Guix because this is the place where censorship is
occurring.

There is no censorship that I have seen on GNU, just your attempt to take
over control of the project Stallman has started and fueled for years just
because of your personal grudge with him. You chose to take the problems
as the most important and ignore his contributions, past and present. I
myself was introduced to Guix by Richard and I have involved others. Heck!
I would say even you came to GNU because of Richard. That is very recent
history. It is not 40 years old.

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* Svante Signell <svante.signell@gmail.com> [2019-10-10 22:23]:
> On Thu, 2019-10-10 at 19:22 +0000, Jean Louis wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > > Your problem is that you published this statement to guix-devel. If
> > > you don't mind, I'll forward your mail to gnu-system-discuss, which
> > > is the appropriate mailing list.
> > 
> > I don't mind.
> 
> Sorry Jean Louis, I was addressing Ludovic, not you. I saw that you
> already sent some stuff to gnu-system-discuss, have to read that now.
> But, please calm down and don't require people to step down. Things has
> to be discussed with sensibility in mind, not creating useless flame
> wars.

Dear Svante,

I do not "require" anyone to step down as I cannot do that.

I am calling those who have integrity to resign from GNU project, that
is different as it is not a requirement.

They are disgracefully abusing Dr. Richard Stallman, Guix operating
system, GNU project and FSF. Funded by the FSF and third parties
through the FSF with way more than US $100,000, it is disgrace that
their defamatory and libelous statement is published on GNU project
websites, as Guix website is GNU project's website.

They expressed to want to build a different free software project, I
am total supporter of that, but if one does not want to support GNU
project, then I suggest they call it different, software can be
forked, names can be changed, and need not be changed at all. 

It is very very funny, that it started with RMS's statement, as
described here: https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/ where
Dr. Richard Stallman wrote, and I am cutting out the context:

"The injustice is in the word "assaulting". The term "sexual assault"
is so vague and slippery that it facilitates accusation inflation:
taking claims that someone did X and leading people to think of it as
Y, which is much worse than X."

But Ludovic Courtès and the sucession company of his supporters, even
being hackers, cannot understand it at all and continue facilitating
accusation inflation by taking claims that RMS did X and leading
people to think of it as Y, which is much worse than X.

The Thoughtpolice[1] Squad of Ludovic Courtès is accusing Dr. Richard
Stallman of thoughtcrime[2] in a manner that is not even appropriate
for criminal offenders. And Richard Stallmen is not a criminal.

I am saddened to see that European born person such as Ludovic Courtès
does not uphold European values such as "nobody is guilty unless
proven" and that for reasons of abort() joke he has decided to defame
and slander on RMS on Guix web pages.

His own website http://web.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ does not speak of
anything related to Dr. Richard Stallman. Like his activity does not
matter alone. I have not seen even mentioning of "free software". I
can just see his own ego and PhD thesis on software and
technicalities, and nothing ideological that I have expected to
see. This speaks of his lack of awareness of importance of free
software and full awareness of technicalities. His ability lies in
hacking, not in leading a GNU project. Without seeing what RMS
continually does for free software, how can he speak to take RMS down
from GNU leadership... it is even not consistent and totally
contradictory with the fact that Guix is supported by RMS, and FSF,
and that huge donation have been sent to Guix by the FSF and third
parties.

The Ludovic Courtès and the succession company have been asked to
provide facts that will justify their statemetn, and they have
none.

They have not allowed comments on their pages, and are just practising
censorship.

It is my opinion that their statements are truly a hostile takeover of
GNU organization and not for reasons of free software and further
development of the GNU project, but for reasons of Ludovic Courtès and
the succession company's desire for authority, powers and funds from
foundations.

Jean

Footnotes:
[1]  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_Police

[2]  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughtcrime

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

Dear P,

See my comments below.

* P <pronaip@protonmail.com> [2019-10-10 22:33]:
> ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
> On Thursday, October 10, 2019 7:22 PM, Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> wrote:
> 
> > > Your problem is that you published this statement to guix-devel. If you
> > > don't mind, I'll forward your mail to gnu-system-discuss, which is the
> > > appropriate mailing list.
> >
> > I don't mind.
> >
> > Guix developers published biased and factless defamation of RMS on Guix pages.
> 
> This is what they actually said: GNU is not fulfilling its mission
> when the behavior of its leader alienates a large part of those we
> want to reach out to.

That is incorrect. GNU is free operating system, and by writing this
from a Hyperbola GNU/Linux-libre system it is a simple fact that it is
fullfiling its mission.

Let us be specific and speak of specific facts, concrete, and let us
avoid generalizations. Ludovic Courtès and the succession company by
conducting fears, uncertainty and doubts[1] and by publishing
generalized, fact-less defamation of Dr. Richard Stallman are simply
trying to take over the authority and powers in GNU project.

However, the effect they got is quite opposite, people don't trust
them.

Even people outside of GNU project and those not being supporters of
free software are expressing their opinions on Internet calling them
"traitors" and other bad names that shall not be mentioned at this
place. 

That is the mob's reaction on their libelous statement, based on
emotions, again not on facts. Their libelous statement itself was
based also on emotions and fears of Ludovic Courtès and the succession
company that they will lose their own reputation in their own lives
due to connection to GNU project itself run by Dr. Richard Stallman.

I say this, if my friend is my friend, I stay loyal to my friend,
despite the rumors in background. Rumors are not facts, and there is
no public figure in the world of last 30 years that has not been
attacked by rumors one way or the other.

But rumor is not a fact.

> Which is true, and the funny thing is, it's true by your own
> admission as well.

It is not true.

It is very easy to say "it is true" and accuse RMS and further inflate
accusations.

It is very hard to provide facts.

The fact is that Ludovic Courtès is not a free software activist. He
cannot represent what he said. He is hacker, he is free software
developer, but not activist in the sense that he pushes free software
forward. Do you see the difference in what I am talking about?

Why I am saying this? Because as of now, on his websites I do not see
mentioning of "free software" and any ideas related to free software.

Do you see here on his website any mentioning of the specific term
"free software"?
http://people.bordeaux.inria.fr/lcourtes/

Try searching for this term:

site:hpc.guix.info "free software" on search engines and you will see
his other website https://hpc.guix.info is not mentioning any
advancement of free software. He is hacker, programmer, developer of
free software, but it looks it just happens by chance, he found ground
to do it, which is all good and fine, but he is not public or loud
proponent of free software.

Nowhere on his personal pages he has mentioned important of the GNU
Project and free software and importance of Dr. Richard Stallman.

He likes free software, he develops it, all is fine, there are many
developers like that, and nobody asks him to be proponend or public
proponent for free software, he is free to do what he wish.

However, the fact that Ludovic Courtès is not a public proponent of
free software and that he never mentioned free software movements and
importances of it, that I know, does not qualify him, does not make
him trusted to say what he said on:
https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/

It is my opinion and impression that many GNU developers joined the
GNU project, without being truly aware of free software ideas and
politics.

What did Ludovic Courtès do for free software in last month, or weeks
other but programming? He has just ruined the image of Guix, GNU, FSF
and Richard Stallman, and himself.

What did Richard Stallman do for free software in last 30 days? He
went to Microsoft Research and did a talk on free software. See this
article:
https://www.zdnet.com/article/free-software-advocate-richard-stallman-spoke-at-microsoft-research-this-week/

That was September 4th 2019.

Did Ludovic Courtès ever did talk on free software?

Or just on Guix, Guile, and other technical stuff that he likes?

Now back to subject of this email, you said that Ludovic Courtès and
his succession company is right and that "GNU is not fullfiling its
mission" due to rumors about RMS, and I have given you my short
research of websites of Ludovic Courtès and have shown you and given
you short research of RMS's deeds in last September 2019, and those
facts are now showing:

1. That Ludovic Courtès never spoke publicly about free software, and
   did not promote free software politics and ideology. He promoted
   free software as such, and is programmer who produces free
   software, and that is good enough. But the distinction is in this
   case important as he is claiming incorrectly that RMS is
   endangering GNU project for rumor's sake.

2. That RMS did the speech in Microsoft Research and pushed forward
   the idea of free software, "covering the importance of free
   software, GPL v3, GNU vs. Linux. He added that "he had a list of
   'small requests': make Github push users to better software license
   hygiene, make hardware manufacturers to publish their hardware
   specs, make it easier to workaround Secure Boot."

That disproves Ludovic Courtès's qualification to say that Dr. Richard
Stallman is not qualified to lead GNU project.

Nobody was EVER qualified to lead GNU project but Richard Stallman.

Ludovic Courtès is not qualified to lead GNU project and make such
statements. He is qualified in technical terms to lead GNU software
projects, not GNU project itself.

GNU Project is primarily idelogical and political. It is not primarily
technical.

People who have signed their disgraceful statements are not
ideologists:
https://www.zdnet.com/article/free-software-advocate-richard-stallman-spoke-at-microsoft-research-this-week/
they are programmers, and I respect each of them what they do in their
programming field.

They are not qualified to replace GNU leadership for reasons that they
have not done anything of ideological value for GNU proejct in that
sense to replace RMS!

Their opinions are invalid. Their opinions are based on their emotions
and lack of experience in the life. Their opinions are based on rumors
and fact-less biased generalizations. None of them could give facts.

A person which could be maybe qualified to say that Dr. Richard
Stallman is not qualified to lead GNU project, could be Eben
Moglen. He was enforcing the GNU GPL license and worked with FSF in
past. He was heavily involved with drafing of the GNU GPL. See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eben_Moglen

Now if he would say at this point or any point of time: "Dr. Stallman
is not disgracing the GNU project because he has long beard and long
hair and French public would rather like to see him nicely trimmed" --
I would laugh about it, and move on. And if Eben Moglen would say that
Dr. Richard Stallman is not doing good for GNU project, then he would
state the facts, and such facts do not exist now. But if he would
state facts, I would not laugh about it, but would rather look into
the facts.

I have asked for facts from Ludovic Courtès and his succession
company, and I got no facts.

I am not in doubt that Dr. Richard Stallman did GOOD to the world with
the GNU project establishment.

Jean Louis

Footnotes:
[1]  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty,_and_doubt

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

Dear Ludovic,

Hello, how are you? I was on long travel, could not answer you earlier.

* Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org> [2019-10-10 16:29]:
> Hi Jean-Louis,
> 
> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> skribis:
> 
> > * Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@elephly.net> [2019-10-10 07:09]:
> >> I have previously asked you privately to stop spamming our mailing
> >> lists.  I am asking you a second time publicly.  If you keep disrupting
> >> our mailing lists your posts will be moderated.
> >
> > I cannot expect anything else from you.
> 
> You’ve made your point now; I see you’ve even set up a web page to
> collect hatred messages against me.

I am sorry for your experience. I have not "setup the web page to
collect hatred messages against you". That you think that is my
purpose, that is your own opinion, but it is not.

I have set the page to show that there are people who think different
than you.

You have made your statement in public, and your statement introduces
other politics but free software politics into the GNU free software
spaces.

Guix is part of GNU project, and you are promoting your whatever other
politics. I do not know what exactly it is named, I think it is
feminism. Call it as you wish, because I am not interested in that
other politics. If I am interested I will read it.

GNU Project is not political. It is apolitical.

Did I ask you to tell me your facts to publish such opinions on GNU
Guix pages guix.gnu.org subdomain on GNU.ORG project?

Did you answer to me that it is because of abort() joke?

Here is the log proving so:
http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guix/2019-10-07.log

"you've probably seen a number of events, like the "glibc abort joke"
episode, the latest episode with MIT, and more"

So you are the one introducing thought-frames and you are organizing
Thougtpolice Squad and introducing other politics into GNU Project but
free software politics.

I don't care of your feminism, or contra-feminism issues. I simply
don't. I am supporting GNU project for reasons of
non-discrimination. For reasons that it is for everybody, regardless
of their opinions.

You mentioned "the recent MIT episode", but did you read the
rebuttals?

https://geoff.greer.fm/2019/09/30/in-defense-of-richard-stallman/
https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UbQ1kc1vQU or
https://watchkin.com/y/7UbQ1kc1vQU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGF17TbbBcE

Is your opinion and statement going to change after reading facts and
rebuttals? Are you going to change your Guix statement due to
disagreements to your  feminism politics in Guix which is in the GNU
Project?

Could you have some balls and simply take out your feminism politics
out of GNU Project?

Was there not enough people telling you on Guix chat that for reasons
of your politics that they do not want to support Guix neither use
Guix?

Why are you imposing other directions in Guix system distribution,
others but "Freedom Zero" policies that Guix remains for everybody,
and not just for those who are on side of feminism?

> I ask you to stop using the Guix mailing lists for this now.  I will
> propose to the Guix maintainers to put you on a moderation queue if
> you don’t stop by yourself.

For as long is that statement on Guix website, and I live, I will not
stop.

For as long as you are bringing fear, uncertainty and doubt into what
was friendly GNU community of people of various opinions but agreeing
to provide GNU free software systems, I will not stop.

For as long as Guix as such and you keep pushing other politics into
GNU Project but politics of free software, I will not stop.

You can put me under your censorship, isn't that what you were doing
since the moment I tried asking you about facts?

Your own website does not speak of free software politics, it speaks
of software as such. But you never mentioned Dr. Richard Stallman or
ideals of free software on your personal website:
http://web.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ludo-3.html
http://people.bordeaux.inria.fr/lcourtes/

Your speeches are technical not ideological.

And who are you then to say that Richard Stallman does not qualify as
GNU project leader? You are hacker, programmer, but ideologically,
your only stance is in feminism, even that is in covert manner.

> Disagreement is fine; attrition is now.

That you don't like people's opinion is already clear. But one thing
you cannot do nothing about is the snow ball that is going on those
political issues that you introduced in Guix, the distribution that
received over US $100,000 from FSF and third parties.

> My sincere apologies to all the Guix people who are witnessing this.
> :-(

"Guix people" are not all people, many disagree with you and they told
you on IRC chat, and on many web pages. And you know it.

Please take your political shit out of Guix pages. Or go out of GNU as
being political enough to bring separation in community because of
your political views. Make your own projects.

GNU was always apolitical.

RMS was never apolitical.

Many GNU project maintainers are NOT apolitical. If somebody is jewish
or muslim or feminist, or contra-feminist, or anti-fascist, or
fascist, or nazi, or contra-nazi, I don't care, as we are all users of
free software. That is what brings people together.

If I have my political views, I will express them elsewhere but on GNU
project. GNU Project shall remain politically free.

You do care, for you is feminism more important than free software and
bringing separation in GNU free software community is harm that you
have done and still doing.

It is time for you to either bring your system distribution into
apolitical environment where only free software is promoted and
pushed, and not where your feminism is promoted.

Or, what person with balls would do is exactl that what you said, make
your own project, but make it elsewhere, as it is now clear that your
project cannot stay "feminism free" and GNU being apolitical in that
sense, you should make your feminism-pro project for free software
elsewhere, and be free to call functions dontabort() if you wish so.

Jean Louis

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* Vasya Boytsov <vasiliy.boytsov@phystech.edu> [2019-10-10 23:03]:
> I kindly ask to remove this statement from the Guix site. It's
> inappropriate, it's poisonous for the community (you can see this
> clearly now). Anyone can have their own opinion in this discussion,
> but _PLEASE_ can we divide OS development and politics?
> There are more appropriate places to post such statements. Having this
> post on a _Guix_ website is very bad for community health.
> I want to continue using Guix and contribute some packages, but with
> such a political involvement I can't.

See my answer here:
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/gnu-system-discuss/2019-10/msg00037.html

That is exactly the problem and the problem was solved but just not
respected by those few who are taking stance on their politics, in
this case feminism movement, Ludovic Courtès and Andy Wingo and other
supporters of the pro-feminist politics have published their
pro-feminist statement here:
https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/ and
have not openly said what it is, neither stated the fact, but tried to
bring GNU community down for reasons of Thoughtcrime[1].

Ludovic Courtès said to me that reasons are of feminist nature:

- abort() joke, see the IRC log where he said to me it is about abort
  joke and "MIT episode": http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guix/2019-10-07.log
  search for "abort".

- see another evidence here where he introduces feminism stances on
  Emacs Virgin jokes: http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guix/2019-10-07.log

Basically RMS is guilty of Thoughtcrime[1] and they (those proponent
of feminism movement) would like GNU without people who think different.

GNU project was always a apolitical and independent. That is why there
is freedom zero that anybody can use software for whatever purposes
they wish.

For example somebody could use free software, GPL licensed, to abort()
or prevent-abortion(), or to spy, create wars or prevent wars, publish
nazi propaganda or anti-fascist propaganda.

By introducing politics other but free software into GNU project
pages, those pro-feminist group of GNU maintainers have tried to make
GNU project political.

Jean Louis

Footnotes:
[1]  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughtcrime

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* Quiliro Ordóñez <quiliro@riseup.net> [2019-10-11 01:27]:
> * Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@elephly.net> [2019-10-10 07:09]:
> > I have previously asked you privately to stop spamming our mailing
> > lists.  I am asking you a second time publicly.  If you keep disrupting
> > our mailing lists your posts will be moderated.
> 
> Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other
> information, on the basis that such material is considered
> objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or inconvenient.

Their censorship is for their very expressed support to feminism
movement. They are introducing politics into GNU project.

GNU project is apolitical to anything but free software.

They have broken their own deeds to be apolitical, and are abusing
GNU.org domain and Guix free system distribution to spread their
feminist views.

Reasons have been given to me by Ludovic Courtès, where he said it is
abort() joke and Emacs Virgin joke, see:
http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guix/2019-10-07.log and
http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guix/2019-10-08.log

By the way Ludovic Courtès does not have any promotion of free
software politics on his website, so he never even mentioned the four
freedoms, he is not really proponent, he is programmer, but that is
not same. He is rather opportunist pushing himself and his own goals
forward. One cannot expect more but what he does now.

Jean Louis

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Pierre-Henry F.]

Dear Jean-Louis,

Could you please stop sending messages to the channel?

Thanks,
PHF

Envoyé depuis ProtonMail mobile

-------- Message d'origine --------
On 12 oct. 2019 à 14:19, Jean Louis a écrit :

> * Quiliro Ordóñez <quiliro@riseup.net> [2019-10-11 01:27]:
>> * Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@elephly.net> [2019-10-10 07:09]:
>> > I have previously asked you privately to stop spamming our mailing
>> > lists. I am asking you a second time publicly. If you keep disrupting
>> > our mailing lists your posts will be moderated.
>>
>> Censorship is the suppression of speech, public communication, or other
>> information, on the basis that such material is considered
>> objectionable, harmful, sensitive, or inconvenient.
>
> Their censorship is for their very expressed support to feminism
> movement. They are introducing politics into GNU project.
>
> GNU project is apolitical to anything but free software.
>
> They have broken their own deeds to be apolitical, and are abusing
> GNU.org domain and Guix free system distribution to spread their
> feminist views.
>
> Reasons have been given to me by Ludovic Courtès, where he said it is
> abort() joke and Emacs Virgin joke, see:
> http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guix/2019-10-07.log and
> http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guix/2019-10-08.log
>
> By the way Ludovic Courtès does not have any promotion of free
> software politics on his website, so he never even mentioned the four
> freedoms, he is not really proponent, he is programmer, but that is
> not same. He is rather opportunist pushing himself and his own goals
> forward. One cannot expect more but what he does now.
>
> Jean Louis

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* Wilson Bustos <wrbutros@gmail.com> [2019-10-10 22:52]:
> P,
> > And even before this incident, I've seen people say they don't want to
> get into free software because of Stallman's behaviour and because people
> defend him from any criticism.
> So, why didn't you do anything before? why now? If it was a real issue that
> would happen in before, not now.

GNU project is apolitical. No politics other but free software
please. Guix people, stop with the feminism movement in GNU projects,
open up your feminists websites and speak what you want. But use your
money please, not FSF's please.

I did not pay much money, but I did pay for Guix. Would I know they
are to try to hurt GNU community by introducing their political views,
I would never. 

> > Don't put Stallman on a pedestal, he is not perfect, and just because he
> founded GNU doesn't mean he should lead it forever or that he should have
> final say in everything.

Stallman will always lead GNU, be it alive or dead, because he has
established free software philosophy by which FSF acts, and by which
free software exists.

He is now doing important actions such as planning or influencing
decision makers, something that simple programmers sitting behind
their keyboards cannot understand. See:
https://www.zdnet.com/article/free-software-advocate-richard-stallman-spoke-at-microsoft-research-this-week/

> I think that is not the problem, no one is perfect, that is why no one
> needs to be perfect to represent a group as GNU, then, RMS doesn't need to
> be removed because he is not perfect, right?

GNU project is not about being perfect but about efficiency in
providing free software.

GNU is functional in itself, it need no feminism or anti fascists or
nazis to help, no politics is welcome in GNU project as GNU software
is for everybody. See freedom zero at
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html and promote freedom zero
also in the behavior of developers.

> Also, why use the official Guix website to show that statement,
> there is a vote of all the members to do that?

There is no vote, they are dictators. It is not democracy.

> p.s: I'm sorry for text this also, but I don't believe in a SJW
> speech.

Sorry I am getting old to understand SJW:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice_warrior

"Social justice warrior" (SJW) is a pejorative term for an individual
who promotes socially progressive views, including feminism, civil
rights, and multiculturalism,[1][2] as well as identity politics.[3]
The accusation that somebody is an SJW carries implications that they
are pursuing personal validation rather than any deep-seated
conviction,[4] and engaging in disingenuous arguments.[5]

OK fine, now I get it, that is exactly what GNU project is not for!

GNU project is for everybody, it is not a platform to be abused by
feminists or any kind of political activists!

> p.s2: A social network text message proof of nothing.

Exactly!

Jean Louis

P.S. Please don't make abort() jokes or you are not welcome in Guix.

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I am calling those who have integrity to resign from GNU project, that
  > is different as it is not a requirement.

We need people of integrity in the GNU Project.  I hope people who
have integrity will remain, not resign.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Jean Louis]

* Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> [2019-10-30 03:04]:
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> 
>   > I am calling those who have integrity to resign from GNU project, that
>   > is different as it is not a requirement.
> 
> We need people of integrity in the GNU Project.  I hope people who
> have integrity will remain, not resign.

If I use Wordnet definitions, it is enough to clarify "integrity".

* Overview of noun integrity

The noun integrity has 2 senses (first 2 from tagged texts)
1. (3) integrity, unity, wholeness -- (an undivided or unbroken completeness or totality with nothing wanting; "the integrity of the nervous system is required for normal development"; "he took measures to insure the territorial unity of Croatia")
2. (1) integrity -- (moral soundness; "he expects to find in us the common honesty and integrity of men of business"; "they admired his scrupulous professional integrity")

Now, how is it morally sound to be supported by GNU Project, by its
founder who created everything for the Guix project to be supported by
GNU Project, and to be supported by the FSF, and then to enjoy
donations of US $100,000 and then for Guix leader to publish
defamatory statements on its own website?

And then to call others to join him in his "Oh, I don't like your
joke" direction, let us "cancel Stallman". What? That is hate movement
within GNU project.

Integrity would mean, for example, to verify the facts, to verify if
the "MIT Episode", as Ludovic mentioned to me, is based on facts or is
it based on rumors, and then to apologize. Integrity means being
friend to GNU project, free software philosophy and friendship that is
established in the project. Not dividing the community.

That somebody got "offended" is not same to "offensive", there was
nothing offensive in the jokes neither in the "MIT episode".

Integrity means being either fully friend or fully enemy.

Integrity would mean to either fully abide by the own Code of Conduct
of Guix and stop with the harassment, or to recognize that one is
enemy of the Guix project, and GNU project, and RMS, and abandon such.

I am not saying what is better, in my opinion, best is to be friends,
and to solve issues by communication, best would be to solve issue
with facts. Obviously one group of people in Guix rows does not
understand any facts, they react overly emotional and think that their
social cause is just and they can destroy what they want.

Or integrity would mean, for example, to take a stance , not
apologize, but then also not pretend to be friend to GNU project and
its core values, as one of its core values was not to introduce other
politics but free software in the project.

I am myself loving Guix and Guile, and would not like seeing
developers go out of the project.

But I have got very bad impression of their ideals and goals, and I
would not like GNU project be run by that type of a group. In my
opinion they are in serious doubt. At one point of time in future,
they may get to senses, but now they are not.

Really good talk on "why everyone is getting so offended". Why Is
Everyone Getting So Offended?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kGBQSXX_GU

Jean

P.S. It wasn't the abort joke, it was a "Federal Censorship" joke.


25.7.4 Aborting a Program

Future Change Warning: Proposed Federal censorship regulations may
prohibit us from giving you information about the possibility of
calling this function. We would be required to say that this is not an
acceptable way of terminating a program.

The above is more humor then a simple joke, it is not "hate speech",
it is a joke. If one does not live in the USA, may take it out of the
context. But that is certainly not a reason for defamation. It's joke.

Finally, Stallman did not say what Ludovic is claiming to be the
problem with the "MIT episode":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UbQ1kc1vQU

Integrity means: to verify the facts and tell what is truth even if it
is not comfortable.

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[Thompson, David]

Stop sending these incoherent essay length rants to the Guix mailing
lists.  You've made your point dozens of times.  Thanks in advance.

- Dave

Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project

[ison]

On Wed, Oct 30, 2019, Thompson, David wrote:
> Stop sending these incoherent essay length rants to the Guix mailing
> lists.  You've made your point dozens of times.  Thanks in advance.
> 
> - Dave
> 

I find his email to be extremely coherent, lucid, on point, and hardly
containing any elements that I would consider to be a "rant".
Perhaps you should elaborate on what parts you think are incoherent so
someone can help you understand them better?