Re: question re. installing software & init system

[Miles Fidelman <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net>]

Thanks!  Some follow-ups inline, below....

On 12/31/15 5:41 PM, Thompson, David wrote:
> Hello Miles,
>
> On Thu, Dec 31, 2015 at 12:26 PM, Miles Fidelman
> <mfidelman@meetinghouse.net> wrote:
>> Hi Folks,
>>
>> One thing that is very murky in the documentation is how to install software
>> that isn't packaged.  I can't seem to find any clear documentation on the
>> process.
> Packaging instructions can be found here:
>
> https://gnu.org/software/guix/manual/html_node/Defining-Packages.html#Defining-Packages
>
>> Several specific questions:
>>
>> The recent PPT presentation on GUIX (to Inria) implies that packaging can be
>> as simple as writing a config file that tells GUIX to do a "config; make;
>> make install" on a source file built with the GNU tools
>> - do I NEED to package something or can I simply do a basic download, untar,
>> config, make, make install on a running system?
> No, you don't have to make a package to use software.  GuixSD is,
> after all, a GNU/Linux system where you can build and run custom
> software without ever telling the package manager about it.  Do note
> that we have no global /usr directory, so you'd want to choose where
> 'make install' will install things by running './configure
> --prefix=/whatever' when building software that uses the GNU build
> system.  Ideally, you'd want everything to be managed by Guix so that
> you could benefit from all the nice features like transactional
> upgrades and rollbacks, but for quick one-off hacks you can go rogue
> just as you could on Debian or Trisquel or any other distro.

Does GuixSD respect the LSB, and in particular /usr/local/.... ?

>
>> - does dmd handle standard sysvinit files (as are still most commonly
>> included in source packages)?
> No, dmd services are Scheme expressions, rather than ad-hoc Bash
> scripts.  For example, here's a custom dmd service I wrote awhile back
> to manage my music player daemon:
>
>      (make <service>
>         #:provides '(mpd)
>         #:requires '()
>         #:start (lambda args
>                   (define (scope file)
>                     (string-append (getenv "HOME") "/.config/mpd/" file))
>
>                   (unless (file-exists? (scope "playlists"))
>                     (mkdir (scope "playlists")))
>                   (touch-file (scope "database"))
>                   (fork+exec-command
>                    (list "mpd" "--no-daemon"(scope "mpd.conf"))))
>         #:stop (make-kill-destructor))
>
> The dmd manual can be found here:
> http://www.gnu.org/software/dmd/manual/html_node/index.html

I was afraid of that.  It's pretty standard for source code to include 
sysvinit files; I doubt anybody includes dmd service files. Kind of 
breaks most standard service installs.

It doesn't look like sysvinit is packaged for GuixSD - it sure would be 
nice to support compatibility.  That would go a long way toward making 
GuixSD a usable distribution.  (One man's opinion.)



>
>> - and the there's the whole set of issues, recently raised, related to
>> language systems that maintain their own repos and build systems (e.g.,
>> CPAN) -- somehow, partial import of dependencies into the GUIX environment
>> does not seem usable
> Like other distros, we work on providing a means to package any type
> of software with Guix.  We have defined build systems to build
> software in a variety of languages like Python, Ruby, Perl, R, and
> Emacs Lisp.  Additionally, we have a tool called 'guix import' to help
> automate some of the package recipe writing process by using the data
> available on PyPI, RubyGems, CPAN, CRAN, ELPA, etc.
>
> Why do you think that using Guix for languages beyond C isn't usable?

Well... speaking just for CPAN - I use several perl-intensive packages 
on our production system.  I almost always find that a cpan-based 
install works.  Trying to install via apt, rarely works. It's a matter 
of keeping stuff up to date.
>
>> And a general comment on the documentation:  Given that this is a (sort-of)
>> new distro, that does things VERY differently from previous distros - it
>> sure would be helpful to have the install documentation provide both a very
>> clear overview of the conceptual approach/architecture (vs. items spread
>> around various ppts)
> We have a section dedicated to the features:
> https://gnu.org/software/guix/manual/html_node/Features.html#Features
>
> Are there any specific things that you would change about this section?

Well, yes.  Including the referenced introduction, there's no 
elucidation of how Guix works, what scripts look like, how to write 
them, etc.  Given that Guix is radically different than traditional 
package managers, a conceptual introduction seems important.
>
>> , AND very clear step-by-step instructions for:
>> - basic install & configuration
> https://gnu.org/software/guix/manual/html_node/Binary-Installation.html#Binary-Installation
>
> https://gnu.org/software/guix/manual/html_node/System-Installation.html#System-Installation

Very short, not a lot of details, particularly when compared to, say the 
Debian install instructions or the BSD handbook.

>
>> - installing & configuring packages (both those that run as services and
>> those that don't; including later re-configuration)
> https://gnu.org/software/guix/manual/html_node/Invoking-guix-package.html#Invoking-guix-package
>
> https://gnu.org/software/guix/manual/html_node/System-Configuration.html#System-Configuration
>
>> - installing & configuring software that isn't packaged
> Linked earlier in the message.
>
>> - with particular attention to how the installer, package system, and init
>> system work together
>> - and with attention to how these all work with other build systems
>> You know - something like the Debian install instructions or the FreeBSD
>> handbook.
>>
>> Granted that documentation generally follows code; when doing things
>> radically differently, there's a lot to be said for writing documentation
>> FIRST - doing so provides a really good check on conceptual clarity and
>> usability.  (It kind of makes it hard to do any kind of testing, evaluating,
>> or contributing without a good starting point.)
> In addition to all of the above-mentioned documentation sections, we
> also have a contributing section:
> https://gnu.org/software/guix/manual/html_node/Contributing.html#Contributing
>
> Our documentation, like our code, is a work-in-progress.  We've been
> building the manual alongside the code the entire time.  There is
> certainly room for improvement, and we've been actively trying to
> improve it, and we would *gladly* accept patches that clarify things
> that tend to confuse new users.  That said, I think our documentation
> is pretty decent and not so poor as you are describing.  We see more
> and more contributors with each release, and the docs we do have
> helped them get started.
>

I'll simply repeat what I said above - when doing things radically 
differently, writing the documentation first helps a lot.  When I need 
to dive into the Debian installer, I can generally find enough detail 
(not necessarily in one place).  (IMHO) Way too much of Guix and GuixSD 
seems to still be in key developers' heads.

Miles Fidelman


-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra