From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0 ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id 0LrNBjRZS2H+BwAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 18:26:28 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0 with LMTPS id wGiEAjRZS2HYTAAA1q6Kng (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 16:26:28 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 813EE18505 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 18:26:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:59042 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mT4Qe-00063k-Nx for larch@yhetil.org; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 11:45:00 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:38054) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mT4QS-00063P-I4; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 11:44:48 -0400 Received: from libre.brussels ([2a01:4f8:201:1044::1]:59984) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mT4QQ-0004pO-B3; Wed, 22 Sep 2021 11:44:48 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=libre.brussels; s=mail; t=1632325475; h=from:from:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=3O0sdrvKVCI2oeHasPORW+BreYAYQSGoqkYVRRYa5cc=; b=nQM9wXfjrexGrKFw/L5EjsOR9JNr7F8XnN9HLZ7MvdGgp9teN1ZFY6LwHFnURBQ0DBt+rD yjOB43aZJsZNuYCPmDmxC3kX6V6et0V8s4zKgtWZrwoYX9R593y62FZJotrGoew9Fsrhhm HAnfTxjCqUqsYTgwTNbHapWQcqJv8ws= MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 15:44:35 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: "Jonathan McHugh" Message-ID: <9ae32bcfb6c45d1ef36fd6241580932e@libre.brussels> Subject: =?utf-8?B?UmU6IFtTcGFtOl1SZTog4oCcV2hhdOKAmXMgaW4gYSBwYWM=?= =?utf-8?B?a2FnZeKAnQ==?= To: "Konrad Hinsen" , "Katherine Cox-Buday" , "=?utf-8?B?THVkb3ZpYyBDb3VydMOocw==?=" In-Reply-To: References: <87wnnbpgnp.fsf@inria.fr> <875yutwuij.fsf@gmail.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a01:4f8:201:1044::1; envelope-from=indieterminacy@libre.brussels; helo=libre.brussels X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org, guix-science@gnu.org Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1632327987; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=3O0sdrvKVCI2oeHasPORW+BreYAYQSGoqkYVRRYa5cc=; b=ITaSMt5S7xjTahiMVco21b7/m16ykOw2Z1wt98OYnJ5c4LCCaZs0LQr3Vyfto/8f4PnA2w KCuPARppMnOqoObA2RxjzJp5DYZj0jztewnbW0Fth33rc/+qxx5/pIwg6I5/6CPVWMXEAo ZikGCOLYoIWfDhANJncVlbAmYy/3t7cphBDXdktA4HiU5AeUQjK9BkDUpLspSUifn3sClT R0H/jhHoUrNjgrkwq3ipuXAUJJDCNieRdEzQ3vP4QPTwjjTewb811Vz7aNdonZ3GUEKIYo ztgvPjoUqKvlgWwwUaYtocHpfdUgodN99trTrNdy+x8XuiHuxf76n0oNU04T3A== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1632327987; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=JUHc2nAm+BQ7wDCAHiflXHOji0BB5/7iumScbfuNinjO1J8Hno5+9JA1nUDv49umRSC9vX WNk6QdLnQJncaeD18gPOZxyDmDFi7yn8JRjCnSP6EiOYcr93DhcBAsaepYs7XvXW4+LbbQ FXzyFEfODpgdqp1y/Gag27As4SsSEB3mtsS8R0pIhdZbYEJvfOpC/uNv2Leg4wUSU0Kthi CcmTU0VCsipTexW9STClwp/CodAccYrCk+LbJHhkoidwT+04ma/fEpzi7bSQ+FC11HKKRs cA83sEPVMtlFwvAvNNtlzjvfn+N1pKZ5yVbpxzT1I4U6qbyjkPeZJz/9tTWBmw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=libre.brussels header.s=mail header.b=nQM9wXfj; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=libre.brussels (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: 0.21 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=libre.brussels header.s=mail header.b=nQM9wXfj; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=libre.brussels (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 813EE18505 X-Spam-Score: 0.21 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: jM/h3R6dNfTV Hi Konrad, Similarly I found the post excellent. Your focus regarding a transition from exploratory to robust is important= (though may have equal significance in the other direction?). Would security experts have (understandable) criteria to prioritise choic= es for 'robust corridors' within an ecosystem of sourcefiles and encapsul= ated blobs? =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Jonathan McHugh indieterminacy@libre.brussels September 22, 2021 3:32 PM, "Konrad Hinsen" wrote= : > Hi Katherine and Ludo, >=20 >>=20I appreciate this post very much. Setting aside questions of freedom= , >=20 >=20+1 >=20 >>=20This is perhaps a rehash of the "worse is better"[2] conversation, b= ut >> I often struggle with deciding whether to do things the "fast" way, or >> the "correct" way. I think when your path is clear, the correct way >> will get you farther, faster. But when you're doing experiments, or >> exploratory programming, being bogged down with the "correct" way of >> doing things (i.e. Guix packages) might take a lot of time for no >=20 >=20Exactly. Most software engineering tools situate themselves somewhere= on > the "fast" vs. "robust" scale, and defend their position as the one and > only Good Thing. Guix is at the "robust" end of the scale in the > software management category. And that's what I want for most of the > software I use, i.e. everything I don't hack on myself. Which is why I > like Guix :-) >=20 >=20What is so far insufficiently supported by computing technology is th= e > necessary transition from "fast" to "robust". There are a few > exceptions, such as programming language with gradual typing. In most > situations, moving software from exploratory to robust involves a lot o= f > rewriting, often manually, with no tooling support. >=20 >>=20Bringing this back to Guix, and maybe the GNU philosophy, it has bee= n >> very helpful for me to be able to leverage the flexibility of Guix to >> occasionally do things the "fast" way, perhaps by packaging a >> binary. Paradoxically, it has allowed me to stay within the Guix and >> free software ecosystem. In my opinion, flexibility is key to growing >> the ecosystem and community, and I would encourage Guix as a project >> to take every opportunity to give the user options. >=20 >=20+100 :-) >=20 >=20There is a lot we can improve here. Tutorials would be a good start. > Example: How do you package a binary in Guix? In particular, how do you > deal with binaries that have binary dependencies that they expect in > /lib etc.? A next step would be tool support: Grab whatever PyPI offers= , > even if it's only binary wheels, and turn that into a Guix package. >=20 >=20Another aspect would be supporting software development moving from f= ast > to robust. Suppose I have software I compile by hand, or via a simple > Makefile, somewhere in my home directory. How do I go from there to (1) > a quick-and-dirty Guix package, then (2) a very basic publishable Guix > package and finally (3) a Guix package with tests and documentation? > The path should be supported by various tools, from automatic rewriting > to debugging. As an example, something I have wished for more than once > is the possibility to run the individual build steps of a Guix package > under my own account in my home directory, for debugging purposes. >=20 >=20Konrad > -- > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Konrad Hinsen > Centre de Biophysique Mol=C3=A9culaire, CNRS Orl=C3=A9ans > Synchrotron Soleil - Division Exp=C3=A9riences > Saint Aubin - BP 48 > 91192 Gif sur Yvette Cedex, France > Tel. +33-1 69 35 97 15 > E-Mail: konrad DOT hinsen AT cnrs DOT fr > http://dirac.cnrs-orleans.fr/~hinsen > ORCID: https://orcid.org/0000-0003-0330-9428 > Twitter: @khinsen > ---------------------------------------------------------------------