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Geerinckx-Rice Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bug#57070] [PATCH] bootloader: extlinux: support for optional FDTDIR References: <20220809145730.435ef8d0@pantherx.org> <483BAA4D-ADDE-43C2-B1E3-BADAD7C43E7D@pantherx.org> <85904cd4-576d-81d0-2cfc-05ff0ab802a6@telenet.be> <13223735-7417-4785-81F8-43715A135574@pantherx.org> In-Reply-To: <13223735-7417-4785-81F8-43715A135574@pantherx.org> --------------eR1OKklFJMw0nobR4a7POARw Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------3YHSJjIlSwiHymjoqY8vCFeB" --------------3YHSJjIlSwiHymjoqY8vCFeB Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------bBciqExNXhhUpF0eiumwpunl" --------------bBciqExNXhhUpF0eiumwpunl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQpPbiAyMi0wOC0yMDIyIDIxOjE5LCBQYXZlbCBTaGx5YWsgd3JvdGU6DQo+IFN1YmplY3Q6 DQo+IFJlOiBbYnVnIzU3MDcwXSBbUEFUQ0hdIGJvb3Rsb2FkZXI6IGV4dGxpbnV4OiBzdXBw b3J0IGZvciBvcHRpb25hbCBGRFRESVINCj4gRnJvbToNCj4gUGF2ZWwgU2hseWFrIDxwLnNo 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On 22-08-2022 21:19, Pavel Shlyak wrote:
Subject:
Re: [bug#57070] [PATCH] bootloader: extlinux: support for optional FDTDIR
From:
Pavel Shlyak <p.shlyak@pantherx.org>
Date:
22-08-2022 21:19
To:
Maxime Devos <maximedevos@telenet.be>
CC:
57070@debbugs.gnu.org, vagrant@debian.org, Tobia= s Geerinckx-Rice <me@tobias.gr>		 

Could you point me at th=
e documentation or code that claims or does that? I am not finding any ev=
idence that device trees are generated at boot.

Google =C2=ABdevice tree r=
aspberry bootloader=C2=BB, 1st result https://forums.raspberrypi.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D329799<=
/a>

That web page does not claim that anywhere. 

If the bootloader can, s=
urely the kernel can.

Bootloader runs on GPU on =
Raspberry. It cannot run kernel.=20
Also, check m1n1 on Apple. It has docs.

I have never claimed that the GPU can run the kernel.

What does m1n1 have to do with anything here? m1n1 isn't extlinux and isn't packaged in Guix.

Bootloaders running on the GPU is something I'm not used to at all, it's not something I had expected, see later.

I believe the kernel fol=
ks will appreciate a patch fixing the DT for RPI3b+ and Compute Module 4.=


And for other devices that=
 behave the same way? You=E2=80=99re literally promoting making GUIX not =
bootable on all devices alike.

I literally never wrote such a thing. In what sentences did I promote that?

Even if you meant 'implied' instead of 'literally', then that still doesn't make sense to me; I'm running Guix System, it's in my own interest to keep it bootable on my device. 

DTs are a kernel thing, =
e.g. the Linux documentation https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/latest/devicetree/usag=
e-model.html mentions DT, also, Linux.  I could not find any informat=
ion on bootloaders loading DTs.

Because you didn=E2=80=99t=
 search for it.
I did search for it, figuring out an _appropriate_ query and finding relevant results is another matter.
 Google
No. It has monopoly and privacy problems.
 =C2=ABdevice tree raspber=
ry bootloader=C2=BB, the first link is about bootloader forming the devic=
e tree https://forums=
=2Eraspberrypi.com/viewtopic.php?t=3D329799.
Generating the DT is a different matter from loading the DT.=C2=A0 It= 's also about firmware, not the bootloader.
 Google =C2=ABuboot device=
 tree=C2=BB h=
ttps://u-boot.readthedocs.io/en/latest/usage/fdt_overlays.html to kno=
w how uboot manipulates them.
These overlays look rather manual, to be done by the user for individual models, I don't see the relevancy. 
Moreover, Raspberry PI ubo=
ot uses DTB to boot on the board as in https://patchw=
ork.ozlabs.org/project/uboot/patch/20191106144104.28177-1-matthias.bgg@ke=
rnel.org/ (Instead of using the embedded DTB as done in RPi3 we use t=
he devicetree provided by the firmware.)
Going by the mention of 'defconfig' and 'arch/arm' and 'configs', this appears to be a patch to Linux, not uboot. As such, it appears that the device tree information is used by Linux here, there is no information there on whether it is used by U-Boot. 
bootloaders don't magica=
lly have access to more information than kernels

They do, if they are run o=
n a separate core on the SOC that linux or arm core has no access to.  Ch=
eck https://github.com/christ=
inaa/rpi-open-firmware

That's a setup I would not have expected.

AFAIK nothing is stopping Linux from sending some code to the separate core to figure out the relevant information and sending it back to Linux. But given the unusual setup, I would consider it plausible that Linux people want to delegate such responsibility to the bootloader.

Was this (i.e. "they are run on a separate core on the SOC ...") the case for the Raspberry device you are trying to support?

If so, figuring out the appropriate options to let U-boot pass the device tree to Linux seems reasonable to me.

My point is that support=
ing more devices would be nice, but this patch isn't the way to do it.

Well, there is no other wa=
y to support devices that require DTB not to be loaded with uboot. The so=
lutions you suggest are not possible.

Moreover, keep in mind FDTDIR is not in the http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Specificati=
ons/BootLoaderSpec/ specification and making is permanent we basicall=
y violate it.

And is this a bad thing, and if so, perhaps FDTDIR could be added to the specification? Guix being in violation of some specification is not in itself a bug, for example the store model of Guix is not 'Linux Standard Base'.

It might be a bad thing, but there's a step missing in your argument.

Since we=E2=80=99ve not co=
me to any understanding here, I kindly invite Vagrant and Tobias to join =
the discussion. They seem to be familiar with the relevant parts of GUIX.=

See the 'If so, figuring out the appropriate options ...' above.

Also, again, it's Guix, not GUIX. GUIX is a Microsoft thing.

Greetings,
Maxime
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