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Resent-From: =?UTF-8?Q?Cl=C3=A9ment?= Lassieur Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: guix-patches@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2024 15:53:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 68577 X-GNU-PR-Package: guix-patches X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Mark H Weaver Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Andr=C3=A9?= Batista , 68577@debbugs.gnu.org, Jonathan Brielmaier , Ian Eure Received: via spool by 68577-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B68577.17073211685769 (code B ref 68577); Wed, 07 Feb 2024 15:53:02 +0000 Received: (at 68577) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Feb 2024 15:52:48 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57683 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rXkEB-0001Uy-DI for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Feb 2024 10:52:48 -0500 Received: from out1-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.25]:34563) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rXkE9-0001Ua-1B for 68577@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 07 Feb 2024 10:52:46 -0500 Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id E26F25C00DB; Wed, 7 Feb 2024 10:52:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 07 Feb 2024 10:52:25 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lassieur.org; h= cc:cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type:content-type:date :date:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:subject:subject:to:to; s=fm2; t=1707321145; x=1707407545; bh=IYxbl0iKEUZ0qrWaCR9y4iOUqtU0xCZarO9OvIaRLWM=; b= dW3XUYwu0C78nnvd8lqre/PqH4itp0lz6C5O57KWT9h2GTWaRkp20ougNPT7LGBW TxnoroEWofJWincEGbcL6xq7vyT0EgJm/uDqen4gwjVbdNnH1hY52YXMQhco0cqw Wa9JTNoBOsxHR19u0xTIj6yoWLn98ejt7dYPzGb1owzIN7RdJKngD1WfzTZGhMIC O3OeSfEXh/LesTLGD7urnDKwC/ykk7xxlzfc19CIKiAQGEFbVn0MY6N8orJpf3ru 7Xt3fhlzzL6xidkgDHle3N8dG3ObkInnj0zMS3KzqGULDBfnQytSl56AFyL2s8Tj a8kqGMCuxLCG870Lg0z7FA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-transfer-encoding :content-type:content-type:date:date:feedback-id:feedback-id :from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:reply-to:subject:subject:to:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy :x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm3; t=1707321145; x= 1707407545; bh=IYxbl0iKEUZ0qrWaCR9y4iOUqtU0xCZarO9OvIaRLWM=; b=N RLT9jmngu+8HGRRfZtDylDt+zYxIzOjiYHgZO7Mjoj63uKJE0CnmMcwTKXddQEd0 pp7RyaIGcLxg1i5mSQBZPLjv1JDzLdEizk8niCo+vQvHs/jWE+h6fXXJpVTvNFwL uoqdtBDemHVG3NGMYZRxzjDTNeQANWnZDn6NTUdDwvJqj3D1IvSfE6OJhk0Ke3tP 9W/dtJi6eKCEvAUj7ubeJ89WffL+NkibZtOXreRvf+axRbphW5N6wQby+Tbi2SnU aSDRpEeQBoIjkBBdGNNBpqcMUSL7ExCwmwhKBP66iHvL+Wdwvgxrm7wBa0ANi/g8 y4j6VfWt+hkXqaMe9sbLg== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvledrtddvgdejlecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpefhvfevufgjfhffkfgfgggtgfesthhqredttderjeenucfhrhhomhepvehlrohm vghnthcunfgrshhsihgvuhhruceotghlvghmvghntheslhgrshhsihgvuhhrrdhorhhgqe enucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpeeiudeuheeviedtleelheeivedutdejgfevhfdvtedvudel hfdthedvvddtieehkeenucffohhmrghinhepghhnuhdrohhrghenucevlhhushhtvghruf hiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpegtlhgvmhgvnhhtsehlrghsshhi vghurhdrohhrgh X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: i4c21472a:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed, 7 Feb 2024 10:52:24 -0500 (EST) From: =?UTF-8?Q?Cl=C3=A9ment?= Lassieur In-Reply-To: <875xz573ek.fsf@netris.org> (Mark H. Weaver's message of "Sat, 03 Feb 2024 14:28:40 -0500") References: <87ttn5nbkj.fsf@netris.org> <875xz573ek.fsf@netris.org> Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2024 16:52:22 +0100 Message-ID: <87r0hos24p.fsf@lassieur.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: guix-patches@gnu.org List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-patches-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-patches-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Scanner: mx10.migadu.com X-Spam-Score: -5.77 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 8FD3E6D831 X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -5.77 X-TUID: N1iZbLIqk5d4 On Sat, Feb 03 2024, Mark H Weaver wrote: > Hi Andr=C3=A9, > > First, let me say that I appreciate you and your contributions to Guix. > I'm sorry that my message made you feel badly. That's not an apology, > but rather a sincere feeling of sadness that your feelings were hurt. > > Andr=C3=A9 Batista writes: > >> seg 22 jan 2024 =C3=A0s 01:09:21 (1705896561), mhw@netris.org enviou: >>> Hi Cl=C3=A9ment, >>>=20 >>> I see now that in November, you added 'torbrowser', which inherits from >>> 'icecat-minimal'. >>>=20 >>> > commit 756ba0429e84ee0f8ce30484439b78c00c61d286 >>> > Author: Cl=C3=A9ment Lassieur >>> > Date: Sun Nov 12 02:23:27 2023 +0100 >>> >=20 >>> > gnu: Add torbrowser. >>> >=20=20=20=20=20 >>> > * gnu/packages/tor.scm (torbrowser): New variable. >>> > (torbrowser-assets): New variable. >>> > * gnu/packages/browser-extensions.scm (noscript): New variable. >>> > (noscript/icecat): New variable. >>> >=20=20=20=20=20 >>> > Co-authored-by: Andr=C3=A9 Batista >>> > Change-Id: I73dc53905e4a028108bb34aae07e44256cf16c85 >>>=20 >>> Did you consult me on this change? I don't remember seeing anything >>> about this in my mailbox. > > Please note that this was simply a question, and not a rhetorical one. > I asked the question because I do not want to assume that my failure to > see an email implies that it was not sent to me. Any email can be lost > due to spam filters, a man-in-the-middle who wishes to prevent delivery, > or because the recipient overlooks it among the torrent of (mostly junk) > mail that many of us receive. > >>> This change concerns me, because it compels me to coordinate with you >>> when making nontrivial IceCat updates. As things stand now, it seems >>> that the 'icecat' and 'torbrowser' packages must be updated together, >>> in lock step. >>>=20 >>> Also, do 'torbrowser' and 'mullvad' both comply with the requirements of >>> the GNU FSDG? For example, do they support EME? Do they steer the user >>> to nonfree software, e.g. nonfree addons. >> >> Considering I was cc'ed and part of the thread that led to that patch, >> I'll consider myself invited to give a piece of my mind on your >> comments. > > I'm glad that you did. It is far better than letting unspoken feelings > fester indefinitely. I'm sorry that I was too overloaded to respond > sooner. > >> First things first: when I sent the very first version of this patch, I >> didn't use inheritance anywhere and it was actually suggested to me as >> an improvement over what I had done[1]. > [...] >> 1. https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-patches/2020-09/msg00261.html > > I looked at the messages in that thread from people other than you, but > I was unable to find any suggestion to use inheritance. Can you point > to the specific message where inheritance was suggested? > > What I do see is a suggestion by Ludovic to "think of ways to factorize > code with IceCat". I agree with that suggestion, but not with the use > of inheritance. Instead, I suggest creating a new (guix build icecat) > module, and moving some of the code from the build phases of IceCat into > Scheme procedures placed within that module. Of course, please CC me on > any proposals along those lines. > >> Looking back, it is true I should have probably known better and have you >> cc'ed right from the start. My code was heavily based on / similar to >> Icecat's package definition and so it made sense to avoid duplication. >> I didn't know and did not care to look who were the contributors to >> Icecat's definition. I see now that I was careless and that my behaviour >> could be seen as disrespectful. No disrespect was intended, but I >> certainly could have done better and I do apologize for my shortcomings. > > For what it's worth, I don't believe that you were "careless" or > "disrespectful", nor do I think that an apology is warranted here. > As Cl=C3=A9ment correctly pointed out, I was not listed as a member of the > mozilla team, and that reason alone makes it understandable that I would > be overlooked. > > FYI, I've just recently added myself to the 'mozilla' team. > >> Now, do you believe me when I say that there was no ill will towards you >> or others? > > Yes, and I never believed otherwise. I have neither perceived ill will > from, nor felt ill will towards, you or Cl=C3=A9ment. > >> I ask this because your last comments strike me on the opposite sense. >> Risking to add insult to injury, but in the hopes of gaining your help, >> I'd say that your comments appear to be assuming ill intention on our >> part towards you and somewhat belittle you at the same time. > > I made no such assumption. > >> Why do you assume to be compelled to do anything if you were not even >> cc'ed? As things stand, my assumption here is that the burden would be >> on us to either ask you directly or to keep a close eye on any changes >> done to Icecat. IMO, you certainly wouldn't be to blame if you changed >> something on Icecat and torbrowser/mullvad/librewolf had some issue. We >> would. > > I would not feel compelled *by you*, but rather as an unintended > consequence of your actions, due to my own desire to not break other > packages while updating IceCat. > >> On the other hand, would it really be that much of added work if we were >> to ask you to copy us when proposing some changes to Icecat? Would it be >> presumptuous or forceful to ask that? > > The problem is partly due to my own (admittedly suboptimal) tendency to > procastinate performing major IceCat updates until shortly before the > previous ESR branch reaches end-of-life. These major updates, which > occur approximately once per year, usually require substantial changes > to the IceCat package definition. These changes are likely to break any > other packages that inherit from the IceCat package, unless all of the > inheriting packages are updated in lock-step within a single batch of > commits. > > Theoretically, there is a window of 2-3 months when these major IceCat > updates could be done, and therefore it would theoretically be possible > to coordinate a lock-step update of IceCat, TorBrowser, and Mullvad at > the same time. However, this would be an added burden on me, and I'm > unwilling to commit to doing this. > >> More than that, it suprises me that after discovering these threads and >> having a good amount of knowledge on building Icecat you've decided to >> just lash out on us, instead of trying to be of help, reviewing the >> proposed patches or letting we learn from our short-sightedness the hard >> way. > > This idea that I "lashed out" at you is unsupported by my actual words. > I think that you have made many assumptions about what I felt about you, > when in fact I merely asked a question, and then proceeded to explain > why the changes created a problem for me. > > I do not deny that I was *mildly* displeased at not being informed in > advance about the changes you made. Of course, I expect to be CC'd on > future updates that relate to the IceCat package, including any changes > that could add more burdens on me when modifying the IceCat package, > given that I feel a responsibility to try my best to avoid breaking > other packages. However, I do not fault you in any way. > > Anyway: thanks again, Andr=C3=A9 and Cl=C3=A9ment, for your contributions= to Guix. > I think well of you both, and I hope that this message will help to > clear up any misunderstandings between us. Thank you Mark for this message. I was a bit rude in the one I sent you just before (I indeed thought your question was rhetorical); for this I apologize. I hope we can work together to continue giving Guix high quality web browsers, striving for privacy and freedom. Kind regards, Cl=C3=A9ment