From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:403:4876::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms13.migadu.com with LMTPS id 6KzwOFZ35GbNnAAAqHPOHw:P1 (envelope-from ) for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2024 17:33:11 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:403:4876::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0.migadu.com with LMTPS id 6KzwOFZ35GbNnAAAqHPOHw (envelope-from ) for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2024 19:33:11 +0200 X-Envelope-To: larch@yhetil.org Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=debbugs.gnu.org header.s=debbugs-gnu-org header.b="t4M8z5/b"; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=gnu.org header.s=fencepost-gnu-org header.b=QHqfjBDD; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-patches-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-patches-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1726248790; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding:resent-cc: resent-from:resent-sender:resent-message-id:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=iBI+psYGcq170vXzgMNAOSCAq8IPMXedIpqZKTDLvVI=; b=GG8E8+ndMqYunyNtoYGN2wECDCVkj3reT1Zbsjqqtm6kpBtnKtaVYPnZLdSmp3MZl/Zzxy 2xhnkO9Nqp31yOTTNT/E13gM6Yw/d+gwAgJeW8SNUaDH9wFp9LpoyyA1tRH7zL6pWch3T1 UfQtb0AE/f+lN1+epn/MTtDryydXK24OGYbcI6OqYx4oJRBdRH3xt3mK1cteMNkuos/jLg do1bKvsqbv+1uD1AWjAUrXfZ3ZfjtBKUruoaxnJBIp8zm4mu6EMYoDrmSLjK6IVUZkazXB VRrpH3wtrCZyynMBmcY7IsQzVSgyE+rKp7fQogbtN1LNzLIvZbwnPxYtMRl8Ag== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=debbugs.gnu.org header.s=debbugs-gnu-org header.b="t4M8z5/b"; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=gnu.org header.s=fencepost-gnu-org header.b=QHqfjBDD; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-patches-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-patches-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1726248790; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=fHlKD0cku7q04Kwu9+cowK+ro+2nHY6jIUphKf+XpGtjdL75GhO+1tmTv3Zzv1inMUBn8Z dFOQP75G6DrUZmd42Ur2TNiEWO7ZR716frzXPW1ZQYwQH+epmmeDEqWeGqlzss+0qkmp9N EtPm/Hzn2QPie0/5pmdzHQqwG11MtsvCj1DUH4IkGXxV5StDgc1ug1hd85zmBgamXldQo2 rrQ2J5q0TqlSQd2oxU4mSd/1jzzvj56Tam56J7+o6kdkLCLUoxg41LKpxaQnFhEtRXOeq6 QLKNro0GLM+lqMgC8UeZedBrz6N47XIlmxywJKbIFmBl+N21W8F97ay6DaxgtQ== Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D63BD323B2 for ; Fri, 13 Sep 2024 19:33:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1spAAD-0002c8-LU; Fri, 13 Sep 2024 13:32:57 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1spAA8-0002UP-Or for guix-patches@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Sep 2024 13:32:52 -0400 Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:5::43]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1spAA8-0006a9-AR for guix-patches@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Sep 2024 13:32:52 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=debbugs.gnu.org; s=debbugs-gnu-org; h=MIME-Version:Date:References:In-Reply-To:From:To:Subject; bh=iBI+psYGcq170vXzgMNAOSCAq8IPMXedIpqZKTDLvVI=; b=t4M8z5/bdI2RDvXKHygjhy4qPwHZm2ZJHShN3nv2IyXiem3+7uhd9hCx/2+7dhJlx/fQpLimYg79kpglYyWw07GzhKpX/OKQK88o5wLBYnMRA5gomIdWPsLbomatTL/rO4/Cff1Xwv4nf7s/pk2W+64maqImrZzbtzAYcX0isT/Ck9Mi2VXp2h4h1KASj9nwxZY4CDnTC/RO4eiRU0I7wF4wND6rMoDsOQ+u5J5CjZLQBEQKfwk+esmnZsNpxtFJBwMvZfdZipaKUrMrwOy0GThQahWvSWxAyGt2ZCCyJUCYYlddch658qwnIhtKC5J0BZ0aKd7dxzMZqR6zXJDLfg==; Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1spAAH-0005Ld-M5 for guix-patches@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Sep 2024 13:33:01 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: [bug#72840] [PATCH RFC] DRAFT doc: Add =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9CDeprecation_?= =?UTF-8?Q?Policy=E2=80=9D?= section. Resent-From: Ludovic =?UTF-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: guix-patches@gnu.org Resent-Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 17:33:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 72840 X-GNU-PR-Package: guix-patches X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Konrad Hinsen Cc: 72840@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 72840-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B72840.172624877620543 (code B ref 72840); Fri, 13 Sep 2024 17:33:01 +0000 Received: (at 72840) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Sep 2024 17:32:56 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44214 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1spAAB-0005LH-W3 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 13 Sep 2024 13:32:56 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:40372) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1spAA9-0005Ky-Oa for 72840@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 13 Sep 2024 13:32:54 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1spA9u-0006ZU-Hr; Fri, 13 Sep 2024 13:32:38 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=MIME-Version:Date:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:To: From; bh=iBI+psYGcq170vXzgMNAOSCAq8IPMXedIpqZKTDLvVI=; b=QHqfjBDD5hrM8t46YCAN 2UAgbZxe/O84rwsKRsbzl0MHKpjfPPirVH4X0ga1bq65apn27TAsP2rfFJSadDN+0oSgDYwmTvDEE DNbwz1trebVhbTKvmahiKK3lN343XPM2t8TeTn/m7L3jWMyPCWbPidGlA1kRyhlwFaqe5kXHAkZES 3L2MG5/WBPfRjpZqOe009aJXMmeYEzlUQuOtzgFGfWa+wlqJQ19HEifhT/a2efvc4ZpC1720MSZ/Z VZU8po3YZPgAgUIOzLmAqzxTJjS0bvBcPJYnv5F92qPY2LFB9io5lIVfnDvHw26XeeBVHLGIFksfC qVysdmU0Rka2CQ==; From: Ludovic =?UTF-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= In-Reply-To: (Konrad Hinsen's message of "Wed, 11 Sep 2024 21:49:26 +0200") References: <80f8b603ecd73cb9f46b1ea43797e143f16d2f17.1724785788.git.ludo@gnu.org> Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2024 19:32:34 +0200 Message-ID: <87frq3foi5.fsf_-_@gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: guix-patches@gnu.org List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-patches-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-patches-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -7.01 X-Spam-Score: -7.01 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: D63BD323B2 X-Migadu-Scanner: mx10.migadu.com X-TUID: LyEmjj4vjC4t Hi Konrad, Konrad Hinsen skribis: > Overall it looks good. I share No=C3=A9's concerns about breaking changes= in > packages. If removing a package is subject to the deprecation policy, > then updating a package to an incompatible version should be handled the > same way. But it is of course much more difficult to detect, for the > packager and even more so for the Guix maintainers. Right; I agree this should be mentioned. > There's also a use case missing in the list in the beginning: Guix as a > dependency of some other software, which in the worst case is no longer > maintained. Users of such software may not even be aware of depending on > Guix, and thus not follow Guix news at all. The number of such programs > is probably close to zero right now, but I bet it won't remain > zero. Every piece of software becomes someone else's dependency one day, > at the latest during the next metasystem transition (see the last part > of my talk in Montpellier last year > (https://hpc.guix.info/events/2023/workshop/program/#caring-for-your-envi= ronment-s-) I think this is covered by the last point: +development of external tools that use programming interfaces such as +the @code{(guix ...)} modules. There are quite a few actually: the CI/QA tools, package browsers like hpcguix-web, the Guix Workflow Language, Guix-Jupyter, rde, etc. [...] > Finally, I wonder about the practicalities. Who will watch out for > potential violations of this policy, and how? It doesn't look like an > easy task. In particular detecting "user-visible incompatible changes". As drafted here, there=E2=80=99s no enforcement and nobody having the duty = of looking for violations and taking action. I view it as binding though. If a user complains that their favorite package as been removed in violation of the policy, then we as a community should review the claim and reinstate the package, unless it violates =E2=80=9Chigher principles=E2=80=9D in the project (that would nee= d to be more clearly defined too, but one of them would be: we mistakenly packaged non-free software or material that we=E2=80=99re not allowed to distribute = for some reason). I=E2=80=99ll think about ways to word it, but I=E2=80=99m happy to take oth= er people=E2=80=99s suggestions. Thanks for your feedback, Ludo=E2=80=99.