From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:403:4876::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms8.migadu.com with LMTPS id AK9cErKE8GWDAwAAqHPOHw:P1 (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2024 17:37:06 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:403:4876::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0.migadu.com with LMTPS id AK9cErKE8GWDAwAAqHPOHw (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2024 17:37:06 +0100 X-Envelope-To: larch@yhetil.org Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-patches-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-patches-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1710261426; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=HYcNz++lvyioyJbxXlSA6KXgVwIdCDpTC71T/WOMHgg3Hhan67F6gKcytnS/Xjm/GXO2H9 ekZOoO+wxYIYafLoWcQKmUGWgy/jd9TlyL7tUmbaEfpupPyu2Mk0DLrE8/8QtJfaHNTf/D v2awEoR7hbFT5l4W6FnVHj1sPVj5c1PCrYmFWRp+vEi3rAYWNPUMM7HMRD7Z+OmefnfWiH r1w3nyaWCrsI5qCJZD6Erdl6ydLalqtkzD0D2YlnZrBXikTKQQthcxGiTm/G3OAGMxOMbf wRm+NvRTkA1b1LDQKdvancPplepytrqe2Wx1l628PzSRzx2veax9U1ut9BkvHg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-patches-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-patches-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1710261426; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:resent-cc:resent-from:resent-sender: resent-message-id:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references: list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=HSEhK0bd2LE5SzGqE+cRRNfpm9DbDCRMNYCfqLe2IWk=; b=e6OjtCnBPqR5xpBld9LxAbSj0ea3Ohl/rranQCJEqFV3tj7pUYJOhErQkdrmYNkFIpIWNC R9HVbrZ5OhmD2hyxpG4kUAqIVogS6d9A/WnX7AJZJBb44+27WNbnArJUXxdHHqB1nvbH+C YwDuoIEuh6hq0VGr5E34nAWU5hiO+TlAT8zUYMWE0alpxsoPbqsqZ4N3F3k3GcBroGSqjG Za03T4vfYOzmA/uAUWUtPAoAHkvdXmvaRXew6LQwz/ZN8Mzz3O3B3CE6z6ynd/mP652Xd5 LzdPfInWaVUQyUZYxVn8g/dich+YjaBcoJZyHteo5hjOBf/0e+BUYENjN7qJCQ== Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E3980DFF8 for ; Tue, 12 Mar 2024 17:37:05 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rk577-0007kq-Ma; Tue, 12 Mar 2024 12:36:29 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rk575-0007ix-L4 for guix-patches@gnu.org; Tue, 12 Mar 2024 12:36:27 -0400 Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:5::43]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rk575-0003fa-CV for guix-patches@gnu.org; Tue, 12 Mar 2024 12:36:27 -0400 Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rk57d-0000LC-SA for guix-patches@gnu.org; Tue, 12 Mar 2024 12:37:01 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: [bug#69587] [PATCH] doc: Add =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=9CSource?= Tree =?UTF-8?Q?Structure=E2=80=9D?= section. Resent-From: Giovanni Biscuolo Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: guix-patches@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 16:37:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 69587 X-GNU-PR-Package: guix-patches X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Ludovic =?UTF-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= Cc: 69587@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 69587-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B69587.17102614111248 (code B ref 69587); Tue, 12 Mar 2024 16:37:01 +0000 Received: (at 69587) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Mar 2024 16:36:51 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43518 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rk57S-0000K4-NM for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Mar 2024 12:36:51 -0400 Received: from ns13.heimat.it ([46.4.214.66]:54732) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rk57Q-0000Jp-4p for 69587@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 12 Mar 2024 12:36:50 -0400 Received: from localhost (ip6-localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ns13.heimat.it (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DE6630022C; Tue, 12 Mar 2024 16:36:08 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at ns13.heimat.it Received: from ns13.heimat.it ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (ns13.heimat.it [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PI1tH45RZqFe; Tue, 12 Mar 2024 16:36:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from bourrache.mug.xelera.it (unknown [93.56.171.217]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-ECDSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by ns13.heimat.it (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B9A83300104; Tue, 12 Mar 2024 16:36:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from roquette.mug.biscuolo.net (roquette [10.38.2.14]) by bourrache.mug.xelera.it (Postfix) with SMTP id 595882F9D7A9; Tue, 12 Mar 2024 17:36:05 +0100 (CET) Received: (nullmailer pid 16802 invoked by uid 1000); Tue, 12 Mar 2024 16:36:05 -0000 From: Giovanni Biscuolo In-Reply-To: <87le6oog1j.fsf@gnu.org> Organization: Xelera.eu References: <878r2sa9hd.fsf@pelzflorian.de> <877cic2xa6.fsf@gnu.org> <878r2r8o7f.fsf@pelzflorian.de> <87le6oog1j.fsf@gnu.org> Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 17:35:57 +0100 Message-ID: <877ci7tnki.fsf@xelera.eu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: guix-patches@gnu.org List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-patches-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-patches-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Scanner: mx10.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -8.39 X-Spam-Score: -8.39 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: E3980DFF8 X-TUID: OuO9PP9DIPjl --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Ludo' thank you for this patch, I find it super useful I don't have specific comments, just general ones. Ludovic Court=C3=A8s writes: > "pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" skribis: [...] >> but someone starting out maybe does not want to read as much as a >> complete talk. If they wanted it all, then better link to Josselin=E2= =80=99s >> talk. > > Right. I appreciate Josselin=E2=80=99s talk very much, but in general I prefer stu= dying written information instead of "attenting to" a talk; I guess I'm not the only one :-) [...] >> Nice things like (guix swh) or (gnu system), (gnu build), (gnu >> installer), (gnu machine), or po, still seem not useful for the general >> populace to me. > > This is in the =E2=80=9CContributing=E2=80=9D chapter, so we=E2=80=99re t= alking about a subset > of the general populace. :-) I don't know what general populance is :-) but I agree with you that explaining the structure of the code is interesting for /some/ people, like me for example. Also, please don't (dis)miss the usefulness of such documentation as a sort of meta-literate programming, probably also useful for expert Guix programmers too, IMHO > You might argue that few current contributors care about the modules you > mention, but by exposing the structure of the code, my hope is that more > people would dare take a look and fiddle with it. Also, we should not assume what are the insterests of most contributors or in general of readers, since everyone have it's own interests and goals in studying Guix. A section like this one does not have to be "perfect" at first "shot", it can be improved by expert Guix persons when they feel "inspired"; I already find the patches you sent useful. It's true that (Guile) programmers could study the source code to understand how it works but knowing the general _architecture is very helpful. Last but not least, I have a feeling it's time to split the Guix manual in two: one for users, like "GNU Guix User Manual" and one for programmers [1], like "GNU Guix Programmer Manual", with chapters like "Programming Interface", "Platforms", "Bootstrapping", "Porting", "Contributing"... but that's another story, OT here. [...] >> Josselin called the distinction between (guix =E2=80=A6) and (gnu =E2=80= =A6) murky, >> explaining that most of (guix =E2=80=A6) must not import (gnu =E2=80=A6)= except by >> module-ref, while (guix scripts =E2=80=A6) and such can just use-modules= (gnu >> =E2=80=A6). To me, gnu/packages.scm looks like core as well, but it rig= htfully >> is in gnu. > > I think =E2=80=9Cmurky=E2=80=9D is a strong word, or at least it shouldn= =E2=80=99t be > interpreted as meaning that the guix/gnu distinction is arbitrary. I=E2= =80=99ll > try to clarify that as well. IMHO the very fact that Josselin find that distinction "murky" (arbitrary? not well defined? not much clear?) is an indication that we need a section like the one you are proposing :-D [...] Thank you for your work! Gio' [1] ehrm... using Guix _is_ programming but well, I hope you got the idea :-) =2D-=20 Giovanni Biscuolo Xelera IT Infrastructures --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQJABAEBCgAqFiEERcxjuFJYydVfNLI5030Op87MORIFAmXwhG0MHGdAeGVsZXJh LmV1AAoJENN9DqfOzDkSluIP/i+EgT44QlMV0ZRHOpz/qCAOUp8DQSL5IaRBUAtw 55mZUQn/DMJef+bfJTTwj7g45MpA1BoSn7Zp1C1WOXM4xJvkh08A7AjOTMrFcf/P tmTSyxasnUWUn75SS2Lm4bWh6GG/XMN7gLPbV9x1O9thxXTV10ZBpK4r7G7lsEdc Bb9+U01+XuhHizNtRCuhfeWxXdzzizjZ78/F14+2MUadRjZ7OkEl9MWFLcbeqenG BaUiTMu9Z+wqm0IdNMQbOpMiKR3qz0DA/8Tpqxqek07oADEg7BkDYBQ2D3Zaos43 pzFLl1hd8cILLYdHoASN28vOEq6+69hdWunGXpmLGZKjRT+3giUH/Ye1afIj8Qzc nvbFABlfBgWqoNcQvW/EsohHqTeDW+YUpXXm79EdmeU+brUZz/QfXi9rNTpoUHES rfZx35FNM491ltdn63i5HG7c3dMxSkOG1wAPTFq+rOfK9KdzxveDCo6xhMaa52Dc qnt9beZuwmaTSG4Ez3RJ42QcSWiozSfMkTF/yKbNsdF9kEmKydvgiVXvISFNdlsr ELq3hgDudRsZ+tInsBP44v37Jfnx79BVldrENeeHp5KPDwcy1xetDQCeHiYEtZ83 5bPXYo2trUPTU99Q33xM4VZhguHpgcN3sDCY+wF4+XR5kWxdTxI3V3qtwKnhFFUA QP4E =iGa3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--