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Resent-From: Mark H Weaver Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: guix-patches@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2024 19:30:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 68577 X-GNU-PR-Package: guix-patches X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: =?UTF-8?Q?Andr=C3=A9?= Batista Cc: 68577@debbugs.gnu.org, Jonathan Brielmaier , =?UTF-8?Q?Cl=C3=A9ment?= Lassieur , Ian Eure Received: via spool by 68577-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B68577.170698856114660 (code B ref 68577); Sat, 03 Feb 2024 19:30:01 +0000 Received: (at 68577) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Feb 2024 19:29:21 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47096 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rWLhY-0003oO-Gg for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Feb 2024 14:29:21 -0500 Received: from world.peace.net ([64.112.178.59]:44058) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1rWLhW-0003oB-R0 for 68577@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 03 Feb 2024 14:29:19 -0500 Received: from mhw by world.peace.net with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rWLh9-0003PG-FO; Sat, 03 Feb 2024 14:28:55 -0500 From: Mark H Weaver In-Reply-To: References: <87ttn5nbkj.fsf@netris.org> Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2024 14:28:40 -0500 Message-ID: <875xz573ek.fsf@netris.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: guix-patches@gnu.org List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-patches-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-patches-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -6.66 X-Migadu-Scanner: mx13.migadu.com X-Spam-Score: -6.66 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 1F37317882 X-TUID: +eqfVNyO5pmn Hi Andr=C3=A9, First, let me say that I appreciate you and your contributions to Guix. I'm sorry that my message made you feel badly. That's not an apology, but rather a sincere feeling of sadness that your feelings were hurt. Andr=C3=A9 Batista writes: > seg 22 jan 2024 =C3=A0s 01:09:21 (1705896561), mhw@netris.org enviou: >> Hi Cl=C3=A9ment, >>=20 >> I see now that in November, you added 'torbrowser', which inherits from >> 'icecat-minimal'. >>=20 >> > commit 756ba0429e84ee0f8ce30484439b78c00c61d286 >> > Author: Cl=C3=A9ment Lassieur >> > Date: Sun Nov 12 02:23:27 2023 +0100 >> >=20 >> > gnu: Add torbrowser. >> >=20=20=20=20=20 >> > * gnu/packages/tor.scm (torbrowser): New variable. >> > (torbrowser-assets): New variable. >> > * gnu/packages/browser-extensions.scm (noscript): New variable. >> > (noscript/icecat): New variable. >> >=20=20=20=20=20 >> > Co-authored-by: Andr=C3=A9 Batista >> > Change-Id: I73dc53905e4a028108bb34aae07e44256cf16c85 >>=20 >> Did you consult me on this change? I don't remember seeing anything >> about this in my mailbox. Please note that this was simply a question, and not a rhetorical one. I asked the question because I do not want to assume that my failure to see an email implies that it was not sent to me. Any email can be lost due to spam filters, a man-in-the-middle who wishes to prevent delivery, or because the recipient overlooks it among the torrent of (mostly junk) mail that many of us receive. >> This change concerns me, because it compels me to coordinate with you >> when making nontrivial IceCat updates. As things stand now, it seems >> that the 'icecat' and 'torbrowser' packages must be updated together, >> in lock step. >>=20 >> Also, do 'torbrowser' and 'mullvad' both comply with the requirements of >> the GNU FSDG? For example, do they support EME? Do they steer the user >> to nonfree software, e.g. nonfree addons. > > Considering I was cc'ed and part of the thread that led to that patch, > I'll consider myself invited to give a piece of my mind on your > comments. I'm glad that you did. It is far better than letting unspoken feelings fester indefinitely. I'm sorry that I was too overloaded to respond sooner. > First things first: when I sent the very first version of this patch, I > didn't use inheritance anywhere and it was actually suggested to me as > an improvement over what I had done[1]. [...] > 1. https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-patches/2020-09/msg00261.html I looked at the messages in that thread from people other than you, but I was unable to find any suggestion to use inheritance. Can you point to the specific message where inheritance was suggested? What I do see is a suggestion by Ludovic to "think of ways to factorize code with IceCat". I agree with that suggestion, but not with the use of inheritance. Instead, I suggest creating a new (guix build icecat) module, and moving some of the code from the build phases of IceCat into Scheme procedures placed within that module. Of course, please CC me on any proposals along those lines. > Looking back, it is true I should have probably known better and have you > cc'ed right from the start. My code was heavily based on / similar to > Icecat's package definition and so it made sense to avoid duplication. > I didn't know and did not care to look who were the contributors to > Icecat's definition. I see now that I was careless and that my behaviour > could be seen as disrespectful. No disrespect was intended, but I > certainly could have done better and I do apologize for my shortcomings. For what it's worth, I don't believe that you were "careless" or "disrespectful", nor do I think that an apology is warranted here. As Cl=C3=A9ment correctly pointed out, I was not listed as a member of the mozilla team, and that reason alone makes it understandable that I would be overlooked. FYI, I've just recently added myself to the 'mozilla' team. > Now, do you believe me when I say that there was no ill will towards you > or others? Yes, and I never believed otherwise. I have neither perceived ill will from, nor felt ill will towards, you or Cl=C3=A9ment. > I ask this because your last comments strike me on the opposite sense. > Risking to add insult to injury, but in the hopes of gaining your help, > I'd say that your comments appear to be assuming ill intention on our > part towards you and somewhat belittle you at the same time. I made no such assumption. > Why do you assume to be compelled to do anything if you were not even > cc'ed? As things stand, my assumption here is that the burden would be > on us to either ask you directly or to keep a close eye on any changes > done to Icecat. IMO, you certainly wouldn't be to blame if you changed > something on Icecat and torbrowser/mullvad/librewolf had some issue. We > would. I would not feel compelled *by you*, but rather as an unintended consequence of your actions, due to my own desire to not break other packages while updating IceCat. > On the other hand, would it really be that much of added work if we were > to ask you to copy us when proposing some changes to Icecat? Would it be > presumptuous or forceful to ask that? The problem is partly due to my own (admittedly suboptimal) tendency to procastinate performing major IceCat updates until shortly before the previous ESR branch reaches end-of-life. These major updates, which occur approximately once per year, usually require substantial changes to the IceCat package definition. These changes are likely to break any other packages that inherit from the IceCat package, unless all of the inheriting packages are updated in lock-step within a single batch of commits. Theoretically, there is a window of 2-3 months when these major IceCat updates could be done, and therefore it would theoretically be possible to coordinate a lock-step update of IceCat, TorBrowser, and Mullvad at the same time. However, this would be an added burden on me, and I'm unwilling to commit to doing this. > More than that, it suprises me that after discovering these threads and > having a good amount of knowledge on building Icecat you've decided to > just lash out on us, instead of trying to be of help, reviewing the > proposed patches or letting we learn from our short-sightedness the hard > way. This idea that I "lashed out" at you is unsupported by my actual words. I think that you have made many assumptions about what I felt about you, when in fact I merely asked a question, and then proceeded to explain why the changes created a problem for me. I do not deny that I was *mildly* displeased at not being informed in advance about the changes you made. Of course, I expect to be CC'd on future updates that relate to the IceCat package, including any changes that could add more burdens on me when modifying the IceCat package, given that I feel a responsibility to try my best to avoid breaking other packages. However, I do not fault you in any way. Anyway: thanks again, Andr=C3=A9 and Cl=C3=A9ment, for your contributions t= o Guix. I think well of you both, and I hope that this message will help to clear up any misunderstandings between us. Sincerely, Mark