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[85.127.52.93]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ku26-20020a170907789a00b0084d46461852sm5489520ejc.126.2023.01.12.12.29.10 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 12 Jan 2023 12:29:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <4ad22b3194af69f3b8db5e471a1f4ced2118590f.camel@gmail.com> From: Liliana Marie Prikler Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2023 21:29:09 +0100 In-Reply-To: <87y1q8mcgq.fsf@xelera.eu> References: <87358rxgjk.fsf_-_@gmail.com> <325c0ef4-63ad-b45d-96ae-2cf248c37548@disroot.org> <871qoavyn2.fsf@gmail.com> <9336884519247fe7c9a9cf0d532eb8a79b954a7f.camel@gmail.com> <87358il4l0.fsf@gmail.com> <86sfgg1z6i.fsf@gmail.com> <87y1q8mcgq.fsf@xelera.eu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Evolution 3.46.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: guix-patches@gnu.org List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-patches-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-patches-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=WaFnFpPy; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-patches-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-patches-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=gmail.com (policy=none) ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1673555416; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=QHWTRVFY9nwIRMxD3HP8phN0xdeuF6/DoH4kA6hJPJhEGWK3cMaVUKqIUlJbPb81rGqxX3 54PifgZe6H6mJWcivw4giRU1ZzcKa+f360P0aWrgjOMSd4kp6bnJuQyFHrs3I6a4IIm5Si F5ASOqp8qM0wyFdtRcFRMjBXXj2KxjVELYOpHT2pdsWlqwEyepCAt5XWqMOLo7W2KHGPXW F86gWNtTzdpAi7ox9vhXupMhyJlnlg97GqoFQv+z6InEDnALjti2vAs0R6QX9G2zSaO5kh O60B/w8Pm+qzvOXEqB8w/iW92u+8XbklngE9ai1cQ5qvyT7HcuW1UTUW3EmqQQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1673555416; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding:resent-cc: resent-from:resent-sender:resent-message-id:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=0nabPLnauDWSD18oU7AS0ugEiqFCuzEVNgNAWk1v5po=; b=Q2GYeT0d5nvyzSVBbtXSaMUGOx3zaoFq4NIiGsEQMUhZK5Vt6dZVi97lgwHXDGcJ1ndqOb R4iEbt+wqhsKRR5KU55in1YyPR1RnGNDVl5TYbu89CwAGJpswjl4594wly/pJsU+DMgbmG ufah9nqtOHjv5J2vIewWw6h28AhIylq9aD6JhKTUYyxvX3c2woXAXXXW7cRsBVqxdgV+qJ /0mzroWWuaSxz7gU8fAQwGvEIj1eK/oJFFZW5HXpv97fQJb/aFa6jTgWjI0g7d0nDE4qV+ KXOpNRLTJoi3Si5bJEWABVnUnUiXMcizWNM22dBUKD9vh8gxQPboYBpjgv1HNg== X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 578F41652A X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=WaFnFpPy; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-patches-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-patches-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org"; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=gmail.com (policy=none) X-Migadu-Spam-Score: 1.00 X-Spam-Score: 1.00 X-TUID: FT32cTxQWc8l Am Donnerstag, dem 12.01.2023 um 08:36 +0100 schrieb Giovanni Biscuolo: > Hello everybody, >=20 > Liliana Marie Prikler writes: >=20 > > Am Mittwoch, dem 11.01.2023 um 23:31 +0100 schrieb zimoun: >=20 > [...] >=20 > > > I agree with Maxim=E2=80=99s arguments.=C2=A0 From my point of view, = unrar- > > > free respects FSDG =E2=80=93 and since it is present in Trisquel, I > > > assume this understanding of FSDG is shared =E2=80=93 to some extent. >=20 > I also agree with _both_ Maxim arguments: >=20 > 1. unrar-free is FSDG compliant, and I cannot see how this can be > defined "point of view" :-) >=20 > 2. 'unrar-free' potentially steering users toward 'unrar' (non-free) > cannot be used as an argument to refuse 'unrar-free' inclusion in > Guix >=20 > Liliana please reply to this two specific points, in particular > please tell us if you judge 'unrar-free' not to be FSDG compliant I already explained this in [1] but TL;DR, while it might be argued that it follows the letter of the FSDG, my personal opinion is that it does not follow the spirit.=20 > > > Even, I would say the Liliana=E2=80=99s opposite argument: it liberat= es > > > user from the non-free unrar by offering a free alternative.=C2=A0 An= d > > > it is the case for all the free re-implementations, no? > > From my point of view, it really doesn't. >=20 > [...] >=20 > > But as it stands right now, I see it as little more than a piece of > > software that makes people go "but how do I get the _real_ unrar?", >=20 > (I don't understand "cue people": is it a misprint?) Cue is a verb, which roughly means "to signal" or "to provoke" [2]. > I'd say that all liberated versions of non-free software could make > people go "how do I get the _real_ one", no?=C2=A0 For example Guix > distributed browsers are lacking EME implementation (no DRM loading) > and some other non-free "extensions" giving problems to users trying > to use certain web services; we have ungoogled-chromium and I know > people asking "how do I get the real Chrome"? ungoogled-chromium is a bad example imho, because it's two steps removed from Chrome. For one, there is the Chromium-Chrome split, where the former prides itself on removing some of the Google cruft and then you have ungoogled chromium on top of those patches to remove even more cruft. > > cue people sending each other advice on a certain channel dedicated > > to non-free software. >=20 > So, if I understand your last point, the problem you see is that > "unrar-free" (alone?) steers people to send each other advice on > channels including non-free software:=C2=A0 Perhaps not alone, you do need to also find one of those rar files that can't be opened by libarchive, which are not that hard to come by.* Now, I hope I'm not exaggerating when I say that most computer users use libarchive-based (un)archiving tools already. [3] Having observed this, I see little meaning in having a frontend, which per its name promises to open archives that their existing tooling can't handle, only to then reveal that it was the existing tooling all along. If it didn't have the name that suggested it was able to do that, no one would expect it to, and upon encountering an archive that libarchive can't handle, they could go "well, fuck those rar guys, I have better things to do", or they could try and figure out what's wrong and contribute a fix (not that a fix is easily contributed given the nature of this bug, but somewhere along their journey they'd notice that rar is proprietary garbage and not fault libarchive too hard for not handling it). Because unrar-free does have a name that suggests it's able to unrar those things, however, they will inevitably feel wronged no matter what and rather think "well, fuck unrar-free, I want unrar-nonfree". The above feels like a very basic HCI thing to me, I wonder why it takes like five mails to get across. > could this be a reason not to include a FSDG compliant software in > Guix? A free system distribution must not steer users towards obtaining any nonfree information for practical use, or encourage them to do so. [4] Cheers * Admittedly, you still have to make use of nonfree software to create such archives, but you'd also need them to create "normal" rar archives =C2=AF\_(=E3=83=84)_/=C2=AF [1] 9336884519247fe7c9a9cf0d532eb8a79b954a7f.camel@gmail.com [2] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cue#Verb [3] https://github.com/libarchive/libarchive/wiki/LibarchiveUsers [4] https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-system-distribution-guidelines.html