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Resent-From: Wojtek Kosior Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: guix-patches@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2023 10:36:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 64958 X-GNU-PR-Package: guix-patches X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch To: Nicolas Goaziou Cc: Andrew Tropin , 64958@debbugs.gnu.org, Liliana Marie Prikler , Cayetano Santos Received: via spool by 64958-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B64958.169088613712534 (code B ref 64958); Tue, 01 Aug 2023 10:36:01 +0000 Received: (at 64958) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Aug 2023 10:35:37 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47215 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qQmj2-0003G5-Jw for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 Aug 2023 06:35:37 -0400 Received: from koszko.org ([93.95.227.159]:49688) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qQmj0-0003Fv-By for 64958@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 Aug 2023 06:35:35 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=koszko.org; s=mail; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:In-Reply-To:Message-ID: Subject:Cc:To:From:Date:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID: Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc :Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe: List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=pShexMI0KJlIwkjprcuE/E/FoFlj0i6tn+4iAK7YElA=; b=IA3MMqQhd9AS6Kw+4RfjRudFPt G0rTOIe0EQLY6QA8YdOQ0yANttJwefzqtYLm929u94kv1FqhTsDpJl7gDZVZ6UUx2q4M1Z88RbuDQ WODAEUhQH3OY+huRvXtC9/THLvNrCufsPtpDwXUw3meYqvpCwtRupjfg+B/Yybijnyar3DWpnbJJI uSSOUCIZoSgug3Rj6E49E24cKTRPS7UAVzu9BenvIlVfVbxjcZQQpuMTOuAP8CfW7WYyANlG65E02 LsIxRbFME2BZGbtjFDTUpY5+fp+1+941K9y/TNLQTQyGd/S1U6+bMRNF96YOgRsgy65FATOPNJxDg y+ndptTZ46rhdqIR0VcEF7vvd8k9YjxLC5B+khpMjl4WdEsNruEPI2lg4Wo4ykUyXzgEnAYvy5n7j zuV8a2npdWm5pCRF+umlqx5/0ZRoK/vAHQeNOed2mCrcDkfgCEOGSFoXuwZqqzMHU6kZoByeA8RW0 ljtXDAda+aPu2vEX24hyFP4QWfqyVWvR6b83GBS8o7qanvLSTOKvyjIpxBBrXsH23t4V07gSi4Eid sCN/lu9EDzMblv1d3KtCd/IRbyN4sUXNXsH79DpUcXnhdEXrmNWjBEL/dLvPf6+ojrK74xiY2ARTB NwvVgE75fqvx+9LC8CKTN4JSztmA1VsfW2SOe8FJE=; Received: from [77.252.47.76] (helo=localhost) by koszko.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qQmiq-0003tg-Ok; Tue, 01 Aug 2023 12:35:24 +0200 Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2023 12:35:22 +0200 Message-ID: <20230801123522.7f70f5e4.koszko@koszko.org> In-Reply-To: <878ravyta5.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> References: <19985392d433fe1719f45532f38573a50544dce5.1690732378.git.csantosb@inventati.org> <20230730225155.3b2510c5.koszko@koszko.org> <878ravyta5.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 4.1.1 (GTK 3.24.37; x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Sig_/fvC5JWaJV0WIDp=HPja1_r_"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: guix-patches@gnu.org List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-to: Wojtek Kosior X-ACL-Warn: , Wojtek Kosior via Guix-patches From: Wojtek Kosior via Guix-patches via Errors-To: guix-patches-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-patches-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Scanner: mx2.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -7.24 X-Spam-Score: -7.24 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 40E2857435 X-TUID: W5wHiXsiO78I --Sig_/fvC5JWaJV0WIDp=HPja1_r_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >> Doesn't this package effectively recommend a nonfree > >> service-as-a-software-substitute? It'd be better to keep users away > >> from such "services". Also, sorry to say, I'm pretty sure this is > >> against the Free Software Distribution Guidelines =20 > > IANAL, but as far as I understand, having clients for various > > "services" out there, even if those services are not distributed as > > free software, is permissible. =20 >=20 > I also think so. In particular, this is not a SaaSS because there is no > software to substitute in the first place. As to centralized services =E2=80=94 I also believe it is acceptable to inc= lude clients for them. I mean tools like YouTube video downloaders. I like how F-Droid approaches this =E2=80=94 programs written for the purpo= se of connecting to centralized services are labeled as having a possible anti-feature. However, I argue that ChatGPT is SaaSS rather than a pure "service". The software being substituted is a "large language model" (LLM). It isn't a *conventional* piece of software, it's a trained neural network. But this doesn't mean it isn't software at all. I performs advanced computation =E2=80=94 that's also what software does. And since nonfree software shouldn't be recommended in distros, the same goes with SaaSS. > I think a clear rule is important, and my opinion is that it should be > permissive. These clients are useful pieces of software, if only because > they constitute an opportunity to learn code. Even if it is a good opportunity, it's a side aspect. Nonfree software wouldn't get packaged merely because it provides some good opportunity. So it shouldn't affect the decision here on SaaSS, either. Also, when looking for some code to take inspiration from, I prefer to look at public git repositories rather than on distro packages. And even if I were to learn elisp from Guix packages, there are already many that do not have freedom issues. Lastly, I admit this is a harder problem than it seems =E2=80=94 search eng= ines could also be presented as (at least partially) SaaSS and it would be hard to leave without these Wojtek -- (sig_start) website: https://koszko.org/koszko.html fingerprint: E972 7060 E3C5 637C 8A4F 4B42 4BC5 221C 5A79 FD1A follow me on Fediverse: https://friendica.me/profile/koszko/profile =E2=99=A5 R29kIGlzIHRoZXJlIGFuZCBsb3ZlcyBtZQ=3D=3D | =C3=B7 c2luIHNlcGFyYXR= lZCBtZSBmcm9tIEhpbQ=3D=3D =E2=9C=9D YnV0IEplc3VzIGRpZWQgdG8gc2F2ZSBtZQ=3D=3D | ? U2hhbGwgSSBiZWNvbWUg= SGlzIGZyaWVuZD8=3D -- (sig_end) On Tue, 01 Aug 2023 12:02:42 +0200 Nicolas Goaziou = wrote: > Hello, >=20 > Liliana Marie Prikler writes: >=20 > > Am Sonntag, dem 30.07.2023 um 22:51 +0200 schrieb Wojtek Kosior: =20 > >> Hi! > >> =20 > >> > * gnu/packages/emacs-xyz.scm (emacs-chatgpt-shell): New variable. =20 > >>=20 > >> Doesn't this package effectively recommend a nonfree > >> service-as-a-software-substitute? It'd be better to keep users away > >> from such "services". Also, sorry to say, I'm pretty sure this is > >> against the Free Software Distribution Guidelines =20 > > IANAL, but as far as I understand, having clients for various > > "services" out there, even if those services are not distributed as > > free software, is permissible. =20 >=20 > I also think so. In particular, this is not a SaaSS because there is no > software to substitute in the first place. >=20 > > IMHO, we would need a clear guideline for all of them rather than > > singling out ChatGPT even if using it is harmful for everyone > > involved. > > > > Nicolas, Andrew, WDYT? =20 >=20 > I think a clear rule is important, and my opinion is that it should be > permissive. These clients are useful pieces of software, if only because > they constitute an opportunity to learn code. >=20 > Regards, --Sig_/fvC5JWaJV0WIDp=HPja1_r_ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEARYIAB0WIQTpcnBg48VjfIpPS0JLxSIcWnn9GgUCZMjf6gAKCRBLxSIcWnn9 Gh/rAP4ouiKiJ1hKU8RufW5OvzzDTnbZRpa0zDUEVQ44K2q48wD+NT413sToNrE4 NyQih0lvMU9aLYGVTdhQNi73e2LcDwU= =X27T -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/fvC5JWaJV0WIDp=HPja1_r_--