From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp1 ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id oFqLBlPgs2GuCwAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 11 Dec 2021 00:18:43 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp1 with LMTPS id mFwYAlPgs2HHJgAAbx9fmQ (envelope-from ) for ; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 23:18:43 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DDAAB8F93 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 2021 00:18:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:40436 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mvpA2-0006hD-0t for larch@yhetil.org; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 18:18:42 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:37622) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mvp9n-0006h2-Bl for guix-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 18:18:27 -0500 Received: from mail-4322.protonmail.ch ([185.70.43.22]:20585) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mvp9j-00035p-Va for guix-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Dec 2021 18:18:25 -0500 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2021 23:18:12 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail2; t=1639178295; bh=YRYvgQY8P7FX6fvvilSHjXUSqaYdMnOZ8oveH7mSfo4=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Reply-To:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To: References:From:To:Cc; b=YjfXthZ8ODijOkwv5OFmGveepFa0w63yuSNA7pnTKz0RJMilNZIbU+m2UUg4EOECt oCj35URiyn4Z14AUFgAG2c6QGQ0Bp5kHr0qHAT0+T2DNkpANDEYOA2MQ008s3SiUyU ST92eQVJhF0MNL+T6Sb/y+0ZFG85zS23yNbbR7cG+6jeQtsgb3tqUYr9mOcZToAWjr HcFuu7HQZ+0Q5LLDxHMCRCDs1T7l9bkChEJH3zqjFW6VmXYhqrinVHBXVi1iCtir8m yk9J8H59JImLCDA9gT/wshbLcMiHf00gYB/t0HOR1tZkpDAnAwj/wQUsTybGRdHe0G D5+KD04eo0TMA== To: Blake Shaw From: Ryan Prior Cc: jgart , Guix Devel Subject: Re: Guix Documentation Meetup Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <87y24s13u8.fsf@nonconstructivism.com> References: <87y24s13u8.fsf@nonconstructivism.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.70.43.22; envelope-from=rprior@protonmail.com; helo=mail-4322.protonmail.ch X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: Ryan Prior Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -4.00 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; none X-Migadu-Queue-Id: DDAAB8F93 X-Spam-Score: -4.00 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: GezO0V+Obyje =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Original Me= ssage =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 On Friday, December 10th, 2021 at 10:40 PM, Blake Shaw wrote: > tldr: is there also room to discuss contributing -- and possibly doing a = sizeable makeover to -- the Guile documentation? Absolutely. The Guile docs are unusable and make Guile a pain to work with.= I say this as an experienced lisp & scheme user with decades of experience= now in elisp, racket, and clojure. After bouncing off of guile projects fo= r years, last November I decided to do Advent of Code in Guile to force mys= elf to finally get the hang of it & get productive. I gave up after a week,= every task was unpleasant and I was reinventing basic language features be= cause I couldn't find out where/if they were implemented in some obscure SR= FI or ice-9 module. Like you wrote, the code I'd finally end up was fine, t= he language itself seems nice, but it's just plain inaccessible. I've found the Guile IRC channel to be polite and encouraging, but also ver= y self-satisfied, which makes it hard to feel heard as a Guile hacker who's= struggling. I hesitate to tackle any kind of nontrivial problem with Guile= because I have no confidence I will find tools that save me time; I'm prof= icient with a half dozen other languages, including multiple lisps, which p= rovide much better support. So even though I really want to learn Guile,bec= ause of Guix, Shepherd and other cool software written in it, I'm no more l= ikely to choose Guile for a software project today than I was 3 years ago w= hen I just started learning it. When I talk to experienced hackers in the Guile community I get the sense t= hey've just accepted that yeah, the only way to get anywhere is to cold mem= orize the most popular ~80 SRFIs or implement everything you need yourself.= One person I talked to was like "oh yeah Guile's great, you just have to i= mplement your own standard library like I did." I'd love to hear your talk, if you're up to present at the Guix meetup I'll= definitely come and listen. I'm also happy to do what I can to help drive = Guile adoption, create a great learning experience around it, and finally s= tart to build the language community that Guile is lacking. Cheers, Ryan